Eleanor grew up learning that sexual pleasure is intended only for marriage. Now in her late 40s and peri-menopausal, she’s experienced surprising changes in her sexual desires. Meanwhile, she’s been making way for body confidence and empowerment for her daughters, with hopes that they won’t experience the shame or related difficulties she did earlier on.
Learn much more in this week’s Girl Boner Radio episode!
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“Higher Desire After 40: Eleanor’s Story”
And I was like, what?! Did I just really think that? So, yes, it was very strange. And then I couldn’t sleep because all I could think about was sex. It was like I was turned on constantly. Like I just couldn’t turn it off… It was just like my body was on fire. That’s when I started looking up information, thinking there’s gotta be other people who’ve experienced this.
Raise your hand if you relate to this. You’re experiencing something sex-related that surprises you — maybe it goes against what you’ve heard is supposed to be true. So you head online in search of understanding or to feel less alone. But you don’t find many helpful answers.
That’s exactly what happened for today’s guest, Eleanor. She grew up in a small, religious community in Nebraska, and she reached out to me when she couldn’t find information on desiring more sex during peri-menopause.
Especially given what Eleanor learned about sex growing up, it’s all come as a bit of a shock to her – and brought both high points and challenges. And thanks to her dedication to working through it all, she and her relationship have grown stronger.
[encouraging, acoustic music]
Eleanor: So I grew up in a very Christian home. And so we didn’t talk about sex at all, except for ” you need to stay away from it. You need to abstain. You can only have sex after you’re married.” and I remember when I got married, I was given this book like a week before, and it was like “marriage and sexuality.” And it was like my tutorial for how to be a good wife.
August: Do you remember anything that book said? Did you read it?
Eleanor: Yeah, I did. I remember I was excited about it because this is something that I think your body naturally wants to do and to abstain from it for a long time is very hard. One of the things it said in the book was if you feel like making sounds, then do that, cuz it can increase your pleasure.
So if you find that you’re moaning or wanting to make sounds do so, and I just remember thinking that was kind of odd. And I think it, it says something like, you know, talk to your spouse about it. It should be something that you’re enjoying together.
Okay, so I love that that book addressed pleasure in a positive way – allowing those sounds and moaning part is solid advice. Eleanor agrees, although she said the messages around pleasure were definitely mixed.
Eleanor: And I have gotten that messaging a lot from the church I was attending that, you know, Hey, even if you don’t feel like it, your husband needs that release and he might look somewhere else if you don’t give it to him. And in my marriage, I never felt like I could say no. Like, “Oh, I don’t feel like it.”
That never felt like an option.
Back in her early 20s, Eleanor also learned that a couple should only ever pleasure each other.
Eleanor: And masturbation was a no-no and discouraged.
So when she left her first marriage, which turned out to be “very abusive,” she tried to do what she’d learned – to abstain from all kinds of sex.
Eleanor: Which is super hard after you’ve had sex.
August: Yeah. You know what you’re missing.
Eleanor: Right. And you know, your body wants it. And it’s also when you’re in a situation, at least for me, when I was sad it’s a way to connect. So I found that I didn’t feel like I needed sex. If I was spending time with people who cared about me. But when I was lonely, that’s when I would feel like I needed it more. And so I remember feeling really guilty because I pleasured myself. And now I think that’s ridiculous that I felt so guilty about that, but I did.
August: What do you think helped you embrace your sexuality? It sounds like it’s been a gradual journey?
Eleanor: Yes. I would say that it’s been a gradual journey. I was listening to your program and you were talking about the sexual maps or diagrams?
You were talking about, you know, different people have different ways in which they’re able to be sexual. Like some people need a little time to warm up. Some people are just more sexual where they’re just ready to go. And I think I’m more of a sexual person. I think that’s my kind of normal libido.
August: Ah yes, I think you’re talking about the Erotic Blueprints.
Eleanor: That’s what it was your sexual blueprint. So I remember listening to that, and I thought, oh, that’s so interesting because I feel like my blueprint has changed at different times in my life, depending upon where I’m at. But overall I think underneath it is I’m a pretty sexual person.
I remember when I was a child, kind of exploring a little bit, and then, not understanding what was happening to my body, but just kind of exploring,
I think I’ve always been interested in biology and the human body. And when I was 10, I remember kind of exploring a little bit and then not really understanding what I was experiencing because of course I was in this home where we couldn’t talk about it.
It was also a home where we were always dressed. Like my parents, I never saw them in anything more than a bathing suit.
So I think because I am a sexual person, it just was gonna happen. I was just gonna explore and I am curious. And so after my first marriage ended, I was watching a romance movie.
It had Penelope Cruise in it when she was really young. And it was kind of this weird Italian movie where this guy kept making love to all these different sisters. And then he eventually ends up with Penelope Cruise. It’s kind of a weird movie, but I was watching it and I really felt like I needed a release.
And so I just remember going in the bathroom by myself and I gave myself an orgasm and I was like, wow. It felt good. And then at the same time I felt guilty about it and ashamed. I actually went to my doctor and got on birth control so that I wouldn’t feel so sexual.
Eleanor: Isn’t that so sad?
It makes me wanna hug you. No, I get it though. It’s easy when we learn that masturbation is bad for that pleasure to get all mixed up with shame.
Eleanor: Yes. It’s so crazy and messed up. It was a really difficult time for me.
I dated a lot of men and I would just have these really great make out sessions. And then I wouldn’t let them go any farther because I would feel ashamed.
Things took a turn for the better after Eleanor got married again. That gave her a sense of permission to go back to enjoying again—and she did, to a point.
Eleanor: You know, I married another very Christian man who had never had sex. And so when we first got married, it was really awkward.
So that’s the part where I feel like it’s really sad that self pleasure is discouraged, especially in religious settings because here I’m married to my husband. It’s our first time having sex together, and I don’t know what to tell him, cuz I don’t know what I enjoy because I never explored it.
He doesn’t know what to do. He just knows he is supposed to stick his penis somewhere, but that’s about it. So it just makes for a really awkward, rough first experience.
I mean for most of our marriage, we used to joke that he’s like the minute man on top or under a minute cause he can’t last unless I’m on top. And then some days I’m like, you know what, that’s so much work.
Some days she just wanted to get it done – she was exhausted – especially once they had their three kids.
More changes in her life and desires came a couple of years ago, after she started seeing a therapist to work through trauma from her childhood and first marriage.
Eleanor: So I started this trauma therapy and during the course of discovering myself like who I am as a person and what is it that I want, rather than living up to other people’s expectations. I’ve sadly lived most of my life for other people or for what other people expected of me. Whether it was people in my religion, people in my family, friends.
So as I was going through this trauma therapy, I realized that I don’t wanna be a part of this religion.
Especially given that she has twin daughters. They were 8 years old at that time and starting to ask illuminating questions.
Eleanor: In our church, we have very separate things that men are able to do and women are not. They would ask, “well, why can’t I do that? Why does our older brother only get to do that? Are girls not that important? Which I know, break your heart, right?
August: You’re like “good question. ”
Eleanor: Great questions. I mean, my daughters are very insightful and they wanted to get bikinis, because we got these mermaid tales. We have a swimming pool at our house and I was like, “oh, well, we’re not really supposed to wear those. We’re supposed to be you know, wearing more modest suits.” And then I was like, well, it’s hard to be a mermaid in a one-piece. I mean, really? Like how many mermaids do you see in one piece? I have not seen any.
So I was like, you know what? I don’t want my girls to feel like they need to be restricted. So I just bought them bikinis and these mermaid tales, and I got one too, and we were just enjoying ourselves in the pool. Pretty soon you know, their friends are coming over, then they’re wanting to wear mermaid tales.
Well, long story short, one day I came home and my daughter. She’s so beautiful. Just eight years old, riding her bike around our cul-de-sac in her bikini. And there’s like all the neighborhood kids are out there and there’s boys and girls. And I was like, oh, oh no, you’re not supposed to be like that. That’s so immodest. I was like, “oh sweetie, you need to go change.” And she was like, “why? Why? I’m riding my bike.”
Eleanor started to tell her –
Eleanor: “Well, you know, you need to make sure that you cover your body because we wanna make sure that we’re respectful and stay modest. And she started getting upset and she was like, “what? Is there something wrong with my body? Like, what’s wrong?”
And I realized in that moment, that that was not the message that I wanted to send her. That was not the message I wanted for her at all. And I realized that was the message I had gotten was there’s something wrong with my body. And so I said, “do you know what never mind, sweetie, you go play. Let’s just put some sunscreen on you so that you don’t get burned.”
That was just kind of part of that journey for me, where I just decided, you know what, I’m stepping away from this. I don’t want this for my daughters. I want them to feel free, to be sexual beings, to wear whatever they feel comfortable wearing and to be with whoever they want to be with.
August: That is so moving. How can we know better? We grow up in these environments and it’s what you were taught was good and helpful for yourself and others. And to have that challenged and then to make that change is what changes the world. I mean, truly. Just look at your kids who are so like, wait, why can’t I do this? And that, that comes so much for you. So thank you for that.
Eleanor: Oh, I appreciate that. It has been really great. I see my girls flourishing in ways that I didn’t get to. And they are so confident in a way that I never was . I am now, but you know, it took me a long time to get there. So I cherish that for them.
Eleanor is in her late 40s now — and her libido changes are not something she anticipated. At all.
August: Did you have any ideas about what your sexuality or your desires might be in your forties?
Eleanor: Yeah. So that is why I reached out to you because I feel like there is very little information other than, oh, expect your libido to drop.
That was the information I got from my gynecologist from articles that I read online. So I kind of expected it to maybe taper off a little bit. There is a little bit of information out there saying some women enjoy sex a lot more as they age. That has definitely been true for me.
Uncovering and getting rid of some of the, I guess, shame triggers I had has allowed me to really embrace my sexuality and enjoy it a lot more. And to tell my husband what I want him to do and to explore more. Like, I’ve been sending him articles about the clitoris. I said, ” You need to learn about this part of my body.”
August: I love that.
Eleanor’s husband has been onboard. But the path to getting to the positive place they are now sexually hasn’t been easy. First came the realizations that her libido was NOT going down — in fact, far from it.
Eleanor: as I was going through my trauma therapy and freeing myself from some of these traumas. And I kind of wanna say like chains. In a lot of ways I felt like I was shackled from being my true self. So now that I’ve been able to be more of my true self and express myself, I’ve been able to enjoy my sexuality a lot more.
For example, she would buy really pretty, lacy lingerie –
Eleanor: And wear it proudly all the time (laughs), and just little things like that.
And she started expressing herself more with her husband, too. At one point, early in the marriage, she texted him a photo of herself wearing a lacy bra and panties.
Eleanor: He was so embarrassed he deleted it. and I never really talked to him about how that kind of hurt my feelings.
But as she entered her 40s, Eleanor’s desires were increasing. And she wanted more of all of that, and more sex. She can tell when she’s ovulating, she said – she knows how it feels in her body, partly because of fertility treatments she had when she was working on getting pregnant.
Eleanor: So I had this experience last year where I felt myself ovulate… And then, a day or so later, I could not think about anything but sex.
It reminded her of what she’d been told about 20-year-old men. Perpetual turn on.
Eleanor: it was really unexpected and it was kind of exciting, like it’s kind of fun to be like, Ooh, I feel so sexy. But then it also was off putting too, because I’m like, well, I gotta take care of these kids and I have things going on and I, I kept having to change my underwear because I was like releasing so much fluid. I actually ended up putting on a painting leaner cause I was like, oh my goodness, this is ridiculous.
Increased desire around ovulation is common in folks who menstruate because of spikes in estrogen– that usually happens about midway between periods. For some people the change is subtle.
For others, like Eleanor, it’s pronounced. Especially now, in her 40s.
As she spoke, it almost felt to me like she and her body have been making up for lost time…sexual experiences that she told me she has, at times, wondered if she missed out on because of those religious teachings and related shame.
In any case, the effects aren’t all fun for her during these intensely turned-on spurts, like the one she was describing from last year. Hormonal changes and high libido showed up in her body temperature then, too.
Eleanor: I usually have cold hands and feet. So my kids are used to like, me touching them with cold hands all the time. They were like, “wow, mom, your hands are really hot.” I was just on fire. So my whole body was just really warm and hot. And I kept like, turning on the fan. And it was almost like a continual hot flash, except for I wasn’t sweating. I was just really hot.
And hotness didn’t just apply to her own temperature.
Eleanor: I found myself like checking out men and like, I would just be driving my car and I’m a runner, so I notice people when they’re running, but I just remember there was a man running and I was like, oh wow. He looks so good. I would do him.
And I was like, what?! Did I just really think that? So, yes, it was very strange. And then I couldn’t sleep because all I could think about was sex. It was like I was turned on constantly. Like I just couldn’t turn it off.
If you’re thinking well, why didn’t she take care of that herself? A good ol’ self pleasure session? Well, she tried that. And 20 minutes later –
Eleanor: I would need to do it again. I couldn’t get a release. Like I just was just like my body was on fire. That’s when I started looking up information, thinking there’s gotta be other people who’ve experienced this.
And I only found one article that talked about this being a possible experience for some women as they hit peri-menopause.
Eleanor’s right — there is not much information online about increased libido during peri-menopause. One article I found on the topic features insights from Dr. Suzanne Hall. The gynecologist said she believes that most of the causes aren’t hormone-related but life-related: things like increased self esteem and fewer care-taking responsibilities. That’s something I hear from many women and femmes. As I like to say, when women rise, so do Girl Boners.
What struck me most about the article, though, was the stream of comments below it – readers chiming in with, “I thought it was just me!” and comparing themselves to “teenage boys.” Sound familiar? (That’s a whole other topic, but it’s interesting that we only really hear about raging horniness in the context of young “male sexuality.”)
Regardless, Eleanor said it would have been nice to know she’s not the only experiencing these libido highs as a woman in her 40s. On top of that, she found herself semi-single again in the midst of it all.
August: So this was happening. You were feeling really like physically and mentally, like turned on and release was only helping so much. Did you talk to your husband about it?
Eleanor: Well, so I felt really outta control, too. I just felt like oh, my goodness. I need this really super bad. And at the time my husband and I were separated. So we had been going through some difficulties in our marriage, with all the changes that I was making, having gone through trauma therapy.
You know, when one person in a relationship changes a lot, it can be hard for the partner, which is what we found out.
Eleanor: So I couldn’t really talk to him about it. And he wasn’t available to help me with my situation and I was angry with him anyway. So it wasn’t like I would want to. I didn’t want to include him in what was happening with me. So what I ended up doing was getting on a dating app and sexting with a number of guys, which I’m so embarrassed about because. That’s not something I would normally do.
And now there’s like pictures of me and my underwear. You know, it’s not like they’re awful pictures, but it was just…
August: It’s challenging from a perspective, I imagine, of your upbringing, right?
The wonky ideas we learn, even when we resist them, can linger.
Like when I heard you say that, I was like, yay! Cuz you found a safe and fun way to engage in your sexuality and with other people. And at the same time, navigating those mixed feelings about is this wrong? Is this okay? Am I…
August: …a bad girl? How did you, deal with those feelings?
Eleanor: Well, at first it was really fun and exciting and it felt freeing. I just felt like I’m exploring my sexuality. I’m putting myself out there in a way that I feel good about. But it quickly kind of got outta control because then I was having men wanting to meet with me and I also wasn’t able to sleep so I was up all night talking to strangers.
August: It sounds really all consuming.
Eleanor: It was. It was so hard because here I have, you know, my children in the next room and I’m trying to be a mom to them. But the good part is that I realized in sexting and flirting with men that I didn’t know that I actually really did want to work things out with my husband, that I really do care about him. And that he’s the person I want to be doing these things with, not these strangers.
And it was also good for me to be able to realize that, no, I don’t wanna be with someone other than my husband, cuz at the time I was starting to think that, oh, I should never have married him. Like he’s just so wrong for me.
And then I realized, oh actually he’s the person that I wanna sharing these kinds of experiences with. And so I ended up calling him that night and we talked and he came home the next day and we had amazing sex, like the best ever.
August: That’s really beautiful.
Eleanor: It was. I was, you know, sending him all these pictures and he was just like, “oh my goodness, I can’t wait to see you.” The kids were gone and we just right there on the living room couch. It was great.
And yes, this is the same man who at one point deleted her sexy selfie out of embarrassment. This time, he reacted differently.
Eleanor: Then he was all excited about it, and I said, “you are not allowed to throw these away.”
So I had to show him how you can do a hidden album on your phone. He didn’t know that he could do that. And since then, August, it is so funny. I’ll like get outta the shower and he’s like taking pictures of me. I’m like, “what are you doing?” He’s like, “I’m just saving this for my secret album.”
August: You’ve really both come a long way. No pun intended.
Eleanor: Yeah, definitely.
August: That’s beautiful. Because it sounds like also for him, it wasn’t the picture that you sent him that was the problem. It was having this feeling that others will judge me.
Eleanor: Yes. And he was just afraid someone would find it or see it, and then he just felt really uncomfortable with it.
August: Ah, so you found a way. That is beautiful. That gave me chills.
[Encouraging, acoustic music]
Recently, Eleanor experienced another hugely turned on spurt.
Eleanor: I had another ovulation where I could feel it. And then the next day I was just on fire again. And this time I was able to explore it with my husband and we basically just locked the door and had a great time.
August: It sounds like the experiences you have within marriage, it’s almost like a safety net for you to explore. One thing, people who enjoy monogamy, that’s what they love, is like this bubble of here’s my exploration partner, and I can try these things. And it sounds like maybe you had less shame this second time. Was that partly because you had this environment and relationship where you felt like it’s okay to express and to explore?
Eleanor: Yes, it’s taken us a long time to get to that point. Even this last experience, I went outside and started sexting with some men and then my husband found out about it.
And that was a really difficult conversation and he was really hurt by it and I felt really bad about that. The thing that I realized is it wasn’t that I wanna have sex with other men, it’s that I want more variety. I want to explore more.
And so I was able to talk to him about that and he was able to hear me. I think in the past I didn’t feel like he really heard me and maybe I wasn’t as upfront about what I needed because of some of the shame and also sometimes it felt embarrassing to be like, you know what, I really want you to lick my vagina. Like, I wanna try that. what if he doesn’t wanna try that? What if he thinks that’s weird and gross? You know what I mean? Or I really wanna talk dirty. Like I find that really fun.
August: But the starting can be really intimidating, especially because as you said, you both being very religious and having that background, it’s like, what if this is that thing that they’re just like, oh my gosh, like, what are you talking about? And there’s that fear of rejection sometimes.
Eleanor: Yes. And then, you know, that fear of are they gonna think that I’m like a dirty person or there’s something wrong with me? But I think with this incident where I was talking to other men and he was really hurt, I mean, it was, it was rough.
One of the things I told him, I said, “I wouldn’t feel like I needed to go to someone outside our marriage if I felt like you were available to really hear me.” because he hasn’t always been available to hear me because of some of his triggers and some of his upbringing.
And so we were able to have some really real conversations about our marriage and also about each other and about what I need from him to be able to feel free to speak. Like I need you to be able to hear me without judgment and maybe not even say anything, just let me talk.
That was something that had been hard in our marriage cuz sometimes I would feel judged or criticized or not quite understood. So why communicate with someone if you’re not being understood?
August: Totally. Yeah. You’re bringing up an excellent point around the sex challenges often are not even about sex at the root. They’re about the shame that we might be carrying from growing up. They’re about communication. They’re about all these things, and it’s easy to just look at the sex and be like, oh, well I was sexting and that’s not something that is okay for our relationship. And then you start peeling back the layers. And I just think it’s beautiful that you were able to put those pieces together and realize that you needed to be heard. And then it sounds like he was receptive, which is really big.
Eleanor: I have to hand it to my husband. He has come a long way. We’ve been through a rocky road these last two years and he was feeling like I was rejecting him. And really, I was just trying to be more authentic and my being more authentic felt like rejection to him.
And so we were getting into a lot of fights and disagreements, and I felt like he didn’t understand me. Or he wasn’t even trying to understand me, like I wasn’t being heard. And that is, I believe why I started looking at other men as, as a possibility because I needed some kind of connection.
And it really was triggered by these episodes of intense sexual drive that led me to go outside of my marriage. I mean, I didn’t have an affair. But I was acting out.
And so he did, he felt betrayed and upset, but then I also think it was a wake up call to him when I said, “Hey, if I felt like you were there for me and available and could listen to me without judgment, then I wouldn’t be looking outside of my marriage. I would be going to you.”
I think that just really hit home for him. It was rough for a few days, but then he heard me and he was like, “I wanna be the man that you go to. I wanna be the person.” And that’s when we locked ourselves in our bedroom and he… he did things that he has never done before that were amazing.
and, and he was able to not be one minute man . I was shocked. Like I kept saying, “how are you able to do this? How are you lasting so long?” He’s like, because I’m just focused on you and pleasuring you. And it was so sweet. I just cried, August. Felt so grateful for him. And it has been really a turning point in our marriage.
August: Wow. Seems like he’s been reading those articles you send him.
Eleanor: Yes, he has .
August: That is beautiful. What a powerful story and inspiring.
[encouraging, acoustic music]
Today Eleanor and her husband remain in a strong place — and so does her libido. Those all-encompassing peaks only happen occasionally. They were extreme enough that she thought she should get checked out medically – which is a.wise any time desire changes feel problematic.
Eleanor: I actually went to my gynecologist and scheduled an appointment and to talk to her about it. Cause I was like, what is going on with me? And they did some blood work and she said, “it all comes back normal. It doesn’t look like you’re hitting menopause. Everything’s normal. She said you might have these ebbs and flows in your estrogen.
And hormonal changes can impact desire. So now, every month, Eleanor wonders…
Eleanor: Am I gonna have one of those episodes again? Or
August: It sounds like you’re in a place of being able to manage it better now. Like it’ll be fun, and also…a lot.
Eleanor: I think that I am better prepared and also my husband’s prepared. So we actually came up with a plan we’re like, “okay, so we have some friends. We’ll just ask them if our kids can spend the night and we’re just gonna ride it out.
Eleanor: I know. And he’s like, ” I will be here for you. Don’t worry. If I need to stay up all night with you. I will.” And I was just like, yes. It was so sweet. I kind of am looking forward to it maybe happening again so we can enjoy it together more fully. But at the same time, I’m fine with it not happening because it’s very distracting and hard to function.
August: Yeah., I could see that. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts or feelings about menopause? Like I am in my forties, too, and so I have curiosity about it. I’m like, what is it gonna be like? And we definitely hear a lot of negative things about sexuality and menopause. And I also know that some people feel much freer because they don’t have to think about birth control or they are more confident. But everyone’s so different. Do you have any thoughts about, like, what if your libido changes again?
Eleanor: Well, I don’t feel as sad about it as I did before. I think when I started hitting the peri-menopause phase, I think I was like 47 and I was having night sweats, which are not fun. I had gone to my doctor about it and she was like, “oh yeah, you’re starting to hit the menopause age. You know, this is just the beginning.” I’ve heard all of the things about the hot flashes and the night sweats and all of the uncomfortable things. And so with having this increase in my libido that I didn’t expect, I think I don’t feel as bad about it now. It’s kind of nice to have an increased sex drive and to realize that I’m still a sexual woman who still has a lot to offer and can still be sexy and beautiful. I don’t have to just be gray haired and dried up and be a grandma. like, I can still be a vibrant woman. And life doesn’t end. It’s just another chapter.
August: That was put so beautifully. Yeah. It’s so true.
You’re experiencing that spontaneous desire when it’s really high, where it’s like someone runs by and you’re like, “I’ll do him.” But then responsive desire is beautiful, too.
So when we’re not as quickly turned on, we can kind of how your husband is being, like, “we can have a plan,” even if it’s not in response to a desire kickup, but just building a ritual or deciding you’re gonna put this time aside for pleasure. It seems like you’ve learned so many things through this journey…it’s kinda like a muscle that you can apply to other things that might come up.
Eleanor: Yes. I definitely agree. And it has opened up communication with us. We’re able to communicate about a lot of other difficult topics in ways that we weren’t before and really hear each other. So I think it did start with this being able to connect in this sexual way and talk about our sexuality and our desires and our fears. And then it’s been able to translate into other parts of our life, which is a beautiful thing.
If you relate to Eleanor’s story, whether your libido spike is linked with perimenopause or something else, she wanted you to hear this advice:
August: Do you have any advice for folks who hear your story and they relate to the challenging parts where they’re feeling alone in their desire, maybe they also are peri-menopausal and they notice this and people are like, “that doesn’t happen.” Or maybe they’re having like the, the partner dynamic where a partner doesn’t get it. What advice would you give to somebody who’s relating to your story?
Eleanor: If they’re in a situation where they feel like they can talk to their partner, I would definitely talk to your partner about it and just talk to them about what you’re experiencing and some of the support that you need from them. And then I would invest in a really good dildo.
Eleanor: Cause you’re gonna need it.
August: Yes, yes. Always good to have on hand. I just, I appreciate that so much.
[Encouraging, acoustic music]
Eleanor shared her story anonymously, so if you have thought you would like to share with her, feel free to drop me a note.
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