Differing Desires and Higher Notes of Love: John Kim and Vanessa Bennett

“Differing Desires and Higher Notes of Love”

a Girl Boner Radio transcript

Vanessa: Relationships are hard.

This idea of happily ever after keeps us rooted in this very unhealthy belief that we’re gonna find this romantic partner that’s going to complete us- i.e. we’re not complete without them. And that there’s never gonna be fights. There’s always gonna be chemistry, they are just these need meeting machines that are gonna make me feel reparented, which is what so many of us actually go into relationships desiring. Somebody to re-parent us. 

John: I think it’s a good time, especially with the new generation who grew up swiping, to remind them how hard relationships are and what it takes to build the legs. Yeah.

[encouraging, acoustic music]

August (narration): 

Vanessa Bennett and John Kim are therapists and coauthors of the new book, It’s Not Me, It’s You: Break the Blame Cycle. Relationship Better. They’re also a couple, who met at a time when neither was anticipating life changing love. At least not any time soon.

Vanessa: When I first met John, I had actually just come out of a pretty intense, short, but intense relationship with somebody that had left me, honestly struggling for the first time ever in my life with severe depression. And I was really kind of trepidacious about getting out into dating. 

August narration: 

A friend of Vanessa’s had been sending her John’s posts on Instagram, where he’s well known as The Angry Therapist.

Vanessa: I liked it, but nothing had ever really, I don’t know, grabbed my attention that deeply. And then one day he actually posted something and I just remember it kind of triggered in me like, a huh. 

And so I went to his page and I did a little light, Instagram stalking.

August narration: 

And something…shifted. So she sent the post she’d seen to her friend in a DM. 

Vanessa:

And I was like, “so I find this guy to be incredibly attractive. He seems to live in LA. He seems to be single and we have a mutual friend. I’m gonna date this guy.” 

And she was like, okay. You know, at the time he had, I don’t know, like 50,000 or 70,000 followers. And I was like, “no, I’m gonna date this guy.” It was just one of those things where in hindsight, it’s almost like something took possession of my body.

Right? Like this is somebody I’m going to date. Now it wasn’t like, “oh, this is the one,” or “this is my forever,” but it was like, I just had this deep sense of this person will be in my life.

 August narration: 

She jokingly says that she manifested John.

Vanessa: It could be that it could be, I’m a New Yorker. And like, I make things happen when I say they’re gonna happen. 

August narration: 

In any case, she had a knowing. So she decided to ask their mutual friend to play Cupid. She met that friend for lunch.

Vanessa: And so we were catching up and talking. And before I actually ever said anything about John, he kind of looked at me and said, “I have this friend that I feel like you’d really get along with.” And I was like, “Oh?” 

 August narration:

You guessed it. The friend he had in mind for Vanessa was John. John now calls that friend “Blind Date Guy.”

August: So, John, what do you recall about meeting Vanessa? 

John: You know, we have this joke where if I’m the shot glass, Vanessa is a wine glass. So my response is gonna be about three and a half sentences. 

August: (laughs) That’s great. 

John: Blind Date Guy runs up to me at the gym, says, “Hey, do you date white girls?” I said, “Come on, man. I date all types of girls.” And he says, “I have a therapist for you.” And I said, “Look I don’t just date therapists.” And he gave me her Instagram and I went through the whole thing, stalked the shit out of her Instagram. 

Vanessa: I like how you’re so much more open about admitting. I say “light stalking” and you’re like, “oh no, I stalked the shit out of her.”

John: Well, ‘cause I’m honest. (Vanessa laughs)

 August narration: 

Open honesty is what struck me most about “It’s Not Me It’s You.” Neither author seems to hold back when talking about the very real ups and downs in their relationship – including about things that made the start of their relationship pretty complicated.

John: Unlike Vanessa, I was at a time in my life where I was trying to be quote unquote, single on purpose.

August narration: 

In their book, John describes “single on purpose” as a practice he’d come up with for “growing and investing in Self while free and alone.”

John: Cuz I’ve been in relationships most of my life, I wanted to get into debauchery. I wanted to do things that I didn’t do in my twenties. Wake up with someone I didn’t like, you know, one night stands, all these stories that you hear about. I wanted to do that before I got into something serious and I knew that the next one was gonna be life changing. I knew the next one was gonna be something that I build, that was gonna be sustainable, possibly, you know, house kids, the picket fence and all that.

August narration: 

John had already been in a pattern of relationships getting serious super too soon. He would meet someone, feel a connection, and the next thing they knew they were splitting rent. He’d even been in a relationship that ended in marriage, he wrote, and then REALLY ended in divorce. So, “single on purpose.” That was his goal. But then…enter Vanessa. 

[bright, atmospheric tones]

John: As I started that, and I didn’t get far, the universe cocked blocked me basically. 

Vanessa: Oh shit. (laughs)

John: Speaking of boners… And so that’s why I was ambivalent in the beginning. 

August narration: 

But his Insta-stalking still made him curious enough to ask her out. So he did. He called her up and they made plans. [romantic music, Italian restaurant]

Vanessa: We actually went out for a proper dinner, which almost sounds silly, but I feel like nowadays that’s so not a thing. People are very much like,” let’s get drinks” or “let’s get coffee.” And John was a gentleman and he made dinner reservations at a nice restaurant and we actually had dinner and, and it was long and lovely and talked. Even when I say it a lot, it kind of sounds silly, but I was starving for that. And it felt really nice. 

John: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I don’t know how old you are, August, but I’m 49. So I grew up in the eighties. I grew up where you had to walk up to someone and muster the courage to ask them out before the swipe culture.

And so making dinner reservations I didn’t feel like I was a gentleman. That’s just what you do. Vanessa’s younger than me… 

Vanessa: That’s true. It’s an age difference thing, maybe. 

John: Yeah. So I wonder with her being an elderly millennial, cuz it’s usually coffee…

Vanessa: Drinks…

John: It’s coffee, ghosting and dick pics.

So yeah, of course I made reservations and we had a nice dinner at a place called Little Doms, one of my favorite places in Los Feliz. 

August: Ah, beautiful. I love that area. I used to live in Atwater. 

Vanessa: Love Atwater. Yeah. 

 August narration: 

Did he really just say elderly millennial? I had to laugh at that one a little bit. Anyway, back to the story. Their date at Little Doms, a quaint Italian spot, went well, all considering.

John: Of course I found her very attractive. We had a lot in common. We also had a lot of differences and I judged it very fast. So I was kind of one foot in one foot out. And that ambivalence caused Vanessa her anxiety and then caused her to basically draw the line in sand. 

August narration: 

John wrote that he didn’t know where to file that first date in his brain. He didn’t want a relationship, yet everything about his connection with Vanessa felt…different. But, he denied it. And so even though they started dating, John wasn’t all in. Which is part of what made for a rocky beginning to their relationship. That’s not uncommon, but we don’t often hear about it.

August: You talk about not really having a real honeymoon phase. I think probably a lot of folks relate but we really seldom hear about it. And so it can feel like something’s just broken. Would you share a little bit more about the rockiness of the beginning.

Vanessa: Yeah. I mean, I think you’re pretty spot on. I feel like we always hear about the electric I looked across the room and saw them and we locked eyes and then it was, you know, just having sex into the sunset kind of starts of relationships.

And so when we don’t have that, we question if the relationship is viable. I think that’s really unfair. I think John and I actually work with clients a lot on that. You know, it’s this feeling of, well, if it’s not the lightning in a bottle, then it must not again be viable. 

I had a pattern, I think also, of finding men who were very into me. And it was very obvious. I really liked when men, it’s almost like a love bombing thing. I found that attractive because it made me almost feel safe and I did not get that with John. John was very ambivalent because of where he was coming from and his fear.

I had never experienced that before where somebody was like one fit in one foot out, one fit in. And so it, it took me, it was a very short few months of me saying after maybe three cycles of him in and out, you know, I had this realization that there was something being presented to me, an opportunity to, for the first time ever choose myself and be very clear about how I was choosing myself. 

August narration: 

In the book, Vanessa wrote, “Maybe my ‘knowing’ with John wasn’t about him being my person. Maybe it was about the importance of him coming into my life so I could finally face myself and decide I was worth choosing.” [Central American music]

And so, after a romantic trip they took to Costa Rica, full of good food, great sex and emotional confusion, she took a firm stand.

Vanessa: I kind of laid it on the table and I essentially told him, you know, “I’m in this. If you’re not then essentially shit or get off the pot.” I was pretty clear. I don’t love ultimatums, but it didn’t feel like it to me, it really just felt like I’m choosing me and I know my worth and I know I’m great.

And you don’t have to believe that. That’s okay, but then I’m not gonna be in this with you. It feels, it feels unsafe to me, which is something I had told him a couple times. And so, um, that actually pushed him, I think, to make the decision. 

John: August, I just had a revelation. 

August: Yeah?

John: You know, if she’s used to men coming in, kicking doors down and sweeping her off her feet and that wasn’t my style.

And it wasn’t just the ambivalence. It just kind of isn’t my style. I wondered if that contributed to her feeling unsafe. So, maybe because I was someone, you know, that, that wasn’t outside her bedroom window with the, the boombox over my head and throwing pebbles and, and all that, maybe because I wasn’t, uh, you know, chasing her that felt unsafe to her, but was it unsafe or was it something she wasn’t used to?

August: Ah, that’s such a good point. It can get really complicated, especially with what we learn about how love should feel. 

Vanessa: Mm-hmm.

John: And, I think that’s why our collision wasn’t that whole lightning in the bottle is because, I’m not used to like, you know, women chasing me, but I I’m definitely used to, or at least, the few relationships before Vanessa, I was used to more women being more, quote unquote, would I say lovey dovey or more aggressive or more like assertive, sexually and stuff, kind of all over me. 

And so with Vanessa, that wasn’t the case because that’s not her style. So we basically have two people who are in something they’re not used to. And so basically it felt very, What is going on? Are we in? Are we out?

August: Yeah. Almost like you both were like something was off because there wasn’t that love bombing effect over the top. 

John: Yes. 

August: That’s so interesting. Which a lot of times isn’t really healthy, right? Like love bombing is often a tactic. 

Vanessa: Totally. 

August: Yeah. 

August narration: 

Speaking of wonky behaviors John and Vanessa have a chapter in their book called “Lightning in a Bottle is Actually Dysfunction.” It opens with a thought-provoking quote from TheMindGeek: “Be mindful of people who feel like home, when home wasn’t a safe place to be.” 

They go on to share more about their early relationship, what attraction actually is and a concept known as repetition compulsion.

Vanessa: Repetition compulsion actually is a Freudian term and it essentially means the unconscious will continue to repeat the same pattern over and over again until either it’s learned its lesson, it’s, rewritten history. It’s as if the psyche might be trying to make sense of some trauma.

 And so the psyche will kind of touch that hot stove over and over again until it really embodies the lesson of, oh, this stove is hot. 

August narration: 

That’s one reason someone who grew up in an unstable or abusive household might be drawn to harmful dynamics as an adult. This can play out in other ways, too.

For example, Vanessa grew up feeling like it was her responsibility to take care of her little brother and give some relief to her exhausted mom. And that has played out in what she calls “mothering” in her relationships. In the book she points out that that is also quite a libido killer, feeling like you need to parent your partner. She told me that repetition compulsion has also played out in her codependent tendencies. 

Vanessa: So the people pleasing, the not rocking the boat, all the things that I came into the relationship with. 

 

August: And it wasn’t really until she met John, she said, that she had the groundwork- 

Vanessa: To practice changing those patterns and changing those habits and interrupting that repetition, like being able to pull back and see it for what it was that it was unhealthy patterning. I don’t think I was able to do that before you. 

John: That’s really interesting. I just read something today and it gave me a huge light bulb moment. How dopamine in our brain is shot, through love, but it’s not so much through love. It’s through the chasing, right? Mm-hmm so dopamine, they call the, um, the more drug meaning you just want more of it. There’s this thing that happens when you meet someone where it can be about the chase and the high of the chase. And so after that, you get less dopamine. Then of course, people can label that as boring. 

August narration: 

Rather than finding joy and comfort in things like higher oxytocin levels, the chemical that’s linked with intimacy and closeness.

John: So dopamine is the, what-if drug, meaning, oh, what if this person was just this way? Or what if there’s someone better? It’s the fantasy. The oxytocin serotonin and, uh, the endorphins. That’s the, what-is drug? You know, that’s the, in the moment. and what’s interesting is that when dopamine is firing the other three drugs, that put you in the here and now starts to lower.

August narration: 

And research shows that if you grew up around high levels of stress, or if you have a particular type of brain or neurodivergence, you might end up with impaired dopamine function. And because of that, you might be especially likely to seek more and more. 

John: So then you’re in this kind of spinning state of, what if she only was like this and it’s, it’s very easy chemically, to see the differences as, uh, okay. Then she’s not the one.

Vanessa: Do you think that your repetition then would be to chase the dopamine? Do you think that that’s part of that compulsion for you? 

John: Yeah. I think the repetition for me would be to chase either spotlighting the things that I think are missing or could be better, of course, because of that, then wondering what’s out there or if I’m not with the one. Right? And, and so in the book, the reason why seeing beauty in the contrast is so powerful, at least to me is because that was a way for me to lower the dopamine and then raise oxycotin. 

Vanessa: Oxytocin.

John: Oxytocin, kombucha whatever. (Vanessa and August laugh) And so that made me more present. 

And it’s something I struggle with today. But even today, I can look at Vanessa and really, appreciate our differences, who she is, accept them, try to soothe myself, try not to force her to be like someone that you know, or do something that I want or trace the old love blueprints.

August narration: 

The “old love blueprints.” I like that phrase. Seems important to think about if you find yourself stuck in a relationship pattern that isn’t feeling healthy or fun. Speaking of finding beauty in the contrast, Vanessa and John also differ sexually, as far as their desire styles go. Some of that seems to stem from early learning about sex.

Vanessa: So I grew up with a single mother who was single, but was in a lot of relationships. So…I met a lot of partners growing up.

I think I got close to and attached to a handful of people growing up. And you know, that’s sad for a kid because obviously then you have to kind of break those attachments. I think for me, there was also this lesson that was going on coming from my mom’s kind of defenses around like, fuck men, we don’t need them. You know, they’re not worth anything. 

And yet she was highly sexual and she was beautiful and she was a bartender. And so she got a lot of physical and sexual attention. And so I think I learned really young that looks were really important. Being sexual and kind of using your sexuality was important, but that on an intimate or a vulnerable level, men could not be trusted and shouldn’t be trusted. 

August narration: 

For example, when Vanessa was about 12 her mom made a comment that really stayed in her mind.

Vanessa: I don’t remember how we started talking about this, but I remember my mom saying to me at the time we were, um, part of a Methodist church. I used to go to church when I was a kid. 

 I remember her saying to me, “you know, Vanessa, I really love sex. And I love outside of marriage.” She said this to me. 

John: Wow. 

Vanessa: John’s raising his eyebrows.  and she said “I’ve had a lot of sex outside of marriage.” And she said, “but I do not believe that because I’ve had a lot of sex outside of marriage I’m gonna be sitting in hell for all eternity, between Hitler and Stalin. Burning.” And she basically, it was like her way of saying like own your sexuality, but like through a very interesting kind of door. 

That really stuck with me because it really gave me a perspective and permission around morality and sex that I don’t know that a lot of my friends probably got with a different parent different kind of parent. 

August narration: 

A morality statement about sex and permission in a church, no less. Maybe that was the point. 

One of John’s first memories about sexuality took place around the same age, and involved the 90s sitcom, “Weird Science.” In the episode, two “high school nerds” wear bras on their heads. And they use a computer program to create the “perfect woman.”

John: And I remember watching this as a, as a, I don’t know how old I was, maybe 13, 14 in my mom’s room, and then lying down and with every fiber of my being trying to manifest or create this beautiful woman that’s gonna walk in through the door. and, and, and, uh, and, and, and, uh, not only just walk in and kind of, you know, show me life, but also fulfill my sexual needs.

Vanessa: Oh man. At 13, I can only imagine. 

John: And so of course that was the shallow end of the pool. And as you keep swimming, enter pornography at a very young age and the highs you got from that stuff and then locker rooms. 

My dad was an alcoholic. There’s addiction in my blood. My dad was an alcoholic. My mom’s dad was an alcoholic. My dad’s dad was an alcoholic. And I feel like it skipped my brother. But, I got the addictive gene. If you’re asking me what my addiction was, and I had to pick one, it would be a hundred percent, it would be sex. So it wouldn’t be food. It wouldn’t be exercise. And of course I do a lot, a lot of, you know, I eat a lot and I work out a lot… When I was married, I thought I was a sex addict, so I was going to SAA meetings and all this kind of stuff.

And then I kind of came to the conclusion that I’m not a sex addict, cuz I wasn’t controlling my life and still not controlling my life, but I am highly sexual. And I put that almost at the top when it comes to relationships. And that’s, you know, that’s obviously one of the differences between Vanessa and I.

August: Mm. Vanessa, what does that difference feel like growing up with this very unique representation, I think, of sexuality and then, and also as women we’re so often objectified and I know porn can feel complicated. Did anything come up around that for you? 

Vanessa: You know, what’s funny is that I’m actually completely okay with porn, completely okay with strip clubs, for example. I used to actually go with my ex to one in Brooklyn when we lived out there. If we would go with friends, that kind of stuff doesn’t bother me at all.

And I, and I don’t find myself trying to measure up to women in porn. I could watch porn with a partner, that stuff does not upset me. It doesn’t upset me if he’s on Instagram liking models’ pictures. I tend to go very, almost like non jealous, almost maybe to a detriment. Like I’ve actually talked about this with my therapist. Like why do I feel zero jealousy? 

John: Yeah. I actually prefer her to be more jealous. 

Vanessa: Well, I think a lot of people would. I would say it’s less about the measuring up to myself within that porn fantasy. The Barbie doll come to life and Weird Science and it’s more about John’s desire. Constant desire for connecting physically, and also to say I have a two and a half year old.

So I think for anybody listening, who has a young child, the understanding of, I only have so much of my physical body to go around, it really triggers in me a feeling of not being enough. John wants more from me than I feel like I’m capable of giving. And so I feel like I’m not enough to satisfy my partner period. And so we’ve, we’ve had actually a lot of go arounds in, in that space and around that topic, because his actions trigger me, my actions trigger him and then we get in that cycle.

John: Yeah. And by the way, our sex is amazing. I, I love our sex and connection when we are intimate. I mean I have zero complaints, but it’s not so much about how many times or the quantity, but it’s more of the feeling, The feeling of being desired through touch through flirtation, through all that kind of stuff.

And I think part of it is because Vanessa is different. Everyone we, we, we are with is different, of course. Me comparing, what it was like before. I think many people do is comparing your current relationship with old ones, you know? And I think it’s a trap. I think it’s dangerous because what happens is, everyone that you love is different and the chemistry produced by those two people are gonna be different, right? That dance is gonna be different.

And so if you’re comparing or trying to trace previous relationships and what was good in that then what you’re doing is you’re taking a black light to your current relationship and it’s gonna be harder for you to see all the positive stuff in the current relationship. And then also you’re tracing the highlight reel of the old relationship, forgetting about the documentary, forgetting about all the things that didn’t work. 

Vanessa: Why you’re not together.

John: Right, right. 

Vanessa: Yeah, it’s so different for me. 

August narration: 

On a surface level, Vanessa said, these differences could be summarized in their love languages. As you may know, I have mixed feelings about the five love languages myself — partly because of something Vanessa and John point out in their book, how broad they are. But I also respect whatever tools work for folks. And Vanessa said the love languages totally fit, in terms of their respective sexual desires.

Vanessa: I’m an acts of service person, so I feel loved and appreciated and desired. And I guess put up kind of on a pedestal when my partner is doing things for me, that it feels as though they see me.

So not necessarily just, know, getting the car washed, but actually taking things off of my plate that they have been observing will help me, right? Will help me feel held and partnered and seen. And so that for me is what actually then makes me want to connect intimately. Right. And so it, it’s kind of a dance.

August narration: 

Vanessa also tends to have more responsive desire. Whereas John’s desire is more spontaneous. And when she realized that, and learned that her responsive desire is totally normal and common, too, she found it mind-blowing.

Vanessa: Knowing that I am way more of a responsive desire person that has been a really good reframe, I think for John and I to understand. 

August narration: 

The ways they flirt with each other differs, too. And those differences have brought up some uncomfortable feelings and chances for growth. 

Vanessa: John’s need for feeling desired and intimacy that looks like flirting. And I feel like his flirting tends to be more sexual than my flirting that has been a rub for us.

And I think that that has been part of the conversations we continue to have because what it brings up in me is, well, the way that I flirt then isn’t enough or the way that I do connect with you sexually isn’t enough. And so we’re very honest about this stuff, because we want people to understand that we continue to and do have our challenges.

We just continue to talk about it. We just continue to allow it to be a conversation and an attempt to not attack each other or point fingers or you’re wrong and I’m right. You know, or your way of being is weird and abnormal and mine is normal because what does that even mean? So I think the most important thing is to understand that we just continue to show up and talk about it.

August narration: 

John said there’s another layer  to all of this.

John: Vanessa’s at a point in her life, you know, approaching late thirties where she’s… 

Vanessa: Late thirties. Ah, don’t say that. (laughs) 

John: …that she’s um, She’s able to say no. And she’s able to have non-negotiables and draw boundaries and not wanna fake orgasms anymore. There’s a lot of stuff happening with her and her personal space, growth, her own relationship with self that is adding to the layers, right?

And so maybe I’ve been with women, who were, we were both younger and they weren’t there yet. So maybe I got more of what I wanted because they didn’t have the ability to draw those lines. Yeah. And maybe they were doing it for me more so than them. 

Vanessa: Yeah, totally. 

August (narration): 

I told Vanessa and John about my recent conversation with Eleanor, who’s really stepped into her desires, and experienced higher desire, in her 40s.

August: And I’ve already received like 8 emails from women who relate. Vanessa, does that resonate?

Vanessa: Yeah, it does. And what I will say is right now in this moment, when John and I do have sex, because I feel like I have gotten to a place where I’m working towards getting to a place where I speak up, communicate my needs, put myself first sometimes, I enjoy the sex more than I ever have. And it is a bit of a revolution for me, you know? 

I mean, I think you could agree, August, like we’re really raised as women in this culture to not put our own pleasure, sensuality, desire, first at all. Right. I mean, we’re really raised to believe that our sexuality is in service of men and in service of their ego, which is why so many women fake orgasms, because we don’t talk about our needs. We’re not even taught how to. And I feel like I would be doing a little bit of the whole like do, as I say, not as I do, if I, wasn’t also attempting to change those habits and get out from underneath 

You know, that kind of toxic patriarchal structure that keeps sexuality, I think, minimized in women. And so brava to that guest you had on. And, and I’m looking forward to my forties for that reason. While right now, in this moment, it might feel like I’m saying no more to John and on the receiving end, I’m sure there’s a discomfort with that, even if he does understand where it’s coming from.

I feel like being able to be in this space and being with somebody who I feel safe enough to explore this with is only going to lead me to actually have more amazing sexual experiences on the other side of it.

[acoustic, encouraging music] 

August (narration):

A lot goes well these days for John and Vanessa, as far as their relationship. It’s less rocky, and still something they work at. 

August: You talk about in the book, how you are in progress – you’re always working on your relationship. Was there a point along the way, though, where it went from this bumpy beginning and all of these doubts to feeling quite valid? Have there been any turning points?

Vanessa: John’s thinking, which makes me question whether we’ve had that experience. (Vanessa and August laugh)

John: I’m tumbling in a dryer right now, waiting for someone to open the door. Just laying out to dry.

I think those come in moments for sure. Right. I don’t think it’s like you wake up and there’s a constant for me, I feel it, uh, in my body in moments, especially, you know, we’re parents now. So, we are raising a daughter, which is a new experience for me. Watching her be a mother… They come in, moments in the mundane where you’re like, oh wow. You know? Or you feel either safe or you feel attracted or you feel connected. Um, but yeah, there are moments throughout the day. 

Vanessa: Yeah. I feel that. I feel that I feel that deeply. 

August narration: 

Being super transparent in their book about those moments, and their challenges, was very intentional — but not necessarily easy.

John: Yeah, it was actually important to us, although very difficult because, at least for me, the tone of the book is just as important as the content. 

We wanted to, because we’re both therapists, disclose to the world that therapists also have problems and issues and shortcomings. I know when I was seeing a therapist myself, I would always wonder, especially when I was going through a divorce, I would always wonder, I wonder what she’s like in her relationships.

But therapists don’t disclose that stuff. And they’re more, you know, trained to be a cardboard cutout. So I got the illusion that they’re perfect and they’re telling me how to get the perfect relationships. Then once I became a therapist, I realized there is no perfect.

And so I think it’s important, especially these days with, you know, wellness being kind of crusty and, and then the explosion of wellness, to show therapists in a, in a human way. So that was part of this book is to the tone of it. 

Vanessa: It’s been an interesting experience, cuz I think that John and I, out of the gate, have always been very transparent and tried to what he’s saying, you know, keep that curtain pulled back.

But there have been moments. I mean, even before writing this book, right? Like we’ll do, you know Instagram lives or things like this online and people will. And I mean, listen, I’m sure it’s the same thing with anybody. I’m not saying we’re celebrities, but like celebrity couples, like people you think, you know, because you see them.

And I think we all do this. We have an idea in our head of what they are and it might not be reality. And so there’s been experiences where, you know, John will use his, he’s got a very kind of dry sense of humor. And we do like a little tit for tat sometimes. I’m also a New Yorker. So like, he’ll say something to me and I’ll kind of bite back, but it’s done in like a cheeky way. Neither of us take it personally. 

There’s been experiences where that’s been caught on say like an IG live or something, and people blow up his feed. Like you’re so rude. I can’t believe you’d speak to her like that. Da da, da, da. I got a message one time from a woman saying, “I see you. You’re in a narcissistic relationship. I was there. Let me help you.” I was like, Whoa. whoa, whoa, whoa. 

August: Oh my goodness. 

Vanessa: So it is interesting. Again, the perceptions and the, and the projections that people put on you when you’re, when you’re in the spotlight in any way. 

August narration: 

It is pretty amazing how things can get perceived or judged, especially online. Social media isn’t exactly the best place for nuance. If anyone had doubts about John and Vanessa’s relationship, their book will probably douse them. And beyond their personal story, it’s full of insights to apply to our own relationships.

August: What would you most like folks to know about or take away from your book?

John: I’ll let Vanessa go first so I could buy some time. 

Vanessa: (laughs) Relationships are hard.

That sounds cliche and obviously I’m not the first person that has said it, but I think so much of what we talk about is based on this idea that this cultural perception of “the one” or happily ever after is bullshit. It’s something that’s been fed to us. And it actually keeps us from being able to achieve and experience true intimacy in relationships.

This idea of happily ever after keeps us rooted in this very unhealthy belief that we’re gonna find this romantic partner that’s going to complete us- i.e. we’re not complete without them. And that there’s never gonna be fights. There’s always gonna be chemistry, they are just these need meeting machines that are gonna make me feel reparented, which is what so many of us actually go into relationships desiring. Somebody to re-parent us. 

And that we’re not gonna have to keep doing the hard work on ourselves individually, even once partnered, but also in our relationship with this person. I think if I were to say, there’s like a theme of the book, it’s to kind of remind us that, that’s the truth and that’s okay. And that’s normal and it’s not without payoff to do that work. 

John: I have a tattoo on my right arm that says love hard. And I think a lot of people mistake that as love with everything until you have nothing, or you love so hard that two people become one, which, you know, we see from movies and it sounds romantic. 

I used to believe that, but that’s not the case. What I mean by love hard, that tattoo is, uh, I forgot the word is in between. It was supposed to say love is hard. No. What I mean by love hard is that you love by looking at yourself. You love and love becomes greater than its parts.

Right? I really believe this idea that the thing that you create with your partner, although difficult, can become greater than both of you. And I think that’s when there’s magic. I think that’s when love becomes a superpower. I think most people don’t reach that because of, you know, things that we struggle with. Whether it’s differences or tracing old blueprints or, or not taking ownership, blaming all that stuff. That prevents us, I think, from hitting the higher notes of love, where you build something that can hold both of you because you build something that’s stronger than each of you.

August narration: 

Throughout “It’s Not Me, It’s You,” Vanessa and John also provide questions to ask ourselves. I asked them each to share one for all of us to ponder.

Vanessa: Ooh. I’ve got so many, but I think one of them would be asking yourself what kind of partner, whether that be romantically, sexually, I would even say we could talk about this as a parent, as a friend, as a sister or daughter or whatever you want to be and allow that to be the kind of person that you evolve into, let everybody else evolve, how they’re going to evolve.

And remember, you’re only responsible for yourself. And you’re also only 50% of every relationship. So the best that we can do is attempt to be the best versions of ourselves, not beat ourselves up when we’re not because that’s also human, but then we have to let the rest of it lie. So many times we focus on other people and what they could be and should be doing differently as a way to hide from our own shortcomings and the work that we actually need to do internally on ourselves.

And so if I were to give one question to ask, it’s kind of like, what could you own? Where in your relationships and what in your relationships can you own and work on that. And let the rest be their responsibility. 

August narration: 

John agrees.

John: I think it’s a good time, especially with the new generation who grew up swiping, To remind them how, how hard relationships are and what it takes to, to build the legs. Yeah.

August narration: 

John said that his question for us to ask ourselves is a simple one, but harder to execute.

John: What new love experience do you wanna give yourself? Cuz I think there’s nothing more convincing than a new experience. And not just like what new kind of partner, of course the macro, but I’m talking about the micro. What new experience do you want with this kiss? This touch, you know, this date night? And so when you’re going into it with the intention of creating something new, I think that’s how you let go of the past and create new patterns.

And you convince your body that what you are experiencing is new and different. I think this is how we rewire ourselves. 

[acoustic chord riff]

August narration: 

To learn more, check out John Kim and Vanessa Bennett’s book, “It’s Not Me, It’s You: Break the Blame Cycle. Relationship Better,” most anywhere books are sold. 

If you are enjoying Girl Boner Radio, I would so appreciate a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or the iTunes Store. And please do tell your friends about it.

Thank you so much for listening.

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