Porn vs “Real” Sex with Angie Rowntree and June Ann

Porn vs “Real” Sex, Feminist Porn and Penis Pumps

August (narration)

So I started by asking our first guest how she typically introduces herself.

Angie

I’m Angie Rowntree, director and founder of Sssh.com. And that’s about it!

August (narration)

June Ann’s approach to self-introduction varies a bit. 

June Ann

Well, for me, it definitely depends on who my audience is. But if we’re talking in the porn world or the adult world, it’s definitely going to be I’m a performer. I’ve been in the industry for well over a decade, almost coming up on two decades now. 

August (narration)

When she isn’t talking to folks in the industry or isn’t sure how they might react to her adult film work, she said they get the “whole PhD spiel.” 

June Ann

I have my PhD in immunology and I’m currently focusing on viral immunology.

Angie

She’s gonna save us!

August

Thank goodness. Somebody needs to.

August (narration) 

Angie’s company, Sssh.com, is a female-led and female-focused source for ethically produced, explicit, sex-positive films. They focus on creating feminist porn for women and couples and offer the tagline, “we’re porn, re-imagined.”

Angie told me her husband, Colin, started wasteland.com in the mid-1990s. Wasteland is a BDSM site and one of the oldest adult sites on the web. Angie was helping him with his business and they were going to trade shows, where she noticed that all of the content was geared toward men. The films depicted male pleasure and male fantasies, she said, but nothing for women and femmes. 

Angie

And so, I started to ask around. I started with the women in the office, and I said, “What would you think if we did this?” and they all thought it was a really, really great idea. And so then at the following trade show, I started to ask Colin’s business associates. “I’m thinking of doing this. What do you think of this?” And I got this big spiel about “women aren’t going to pay for porn. And they’re certainly not visual.” So they all kind of thought that I was wasting my time. And I didn’t believe them. And I wanted to change that. 

I wanted to create a space where I could express myself and make cinematic erotic films with storylines propelled by a different type of imagery and aesthetic than what I was seeing on the market. And that’s how Sssh was born. Although I had no idea what women wanted to see. I mean, I just really didn’t, because I didn’t want Sssh to be about me and what I liked or didn’t like. I wanted it to be about what women wanted to see or were interested in seeing. So that’s when we started our survey.

August

Which is a really smart thing to do to, actually ask people, because you know you but women are diverse. And it always cracks me up, in an I-get-a-little-irritated way, when I hear the whole “women aren’t as visual” thing. How do you react to that, June, as somebody who performs?

June Ann

I also do a bunch of content creation, definitely not to the scale that Angie does. But you know, for your own, OnlyFans and your own content, and I do try to push more of the artistic content, and it does get…not frustrating but it is really interesting to observe that whole strive for the balance of giving men what they want, but that’s not necessarily your aesthetic and you don’t want to cheapen your aesthetic or what your vision is for your own brand. I see my own brand as my own actual sexuality. So I want to give people an authentic glimpse at what my sexuality is not what I think they want.

August

At that point, Angie had a question—one I appreciate so much. 

Angie 

So do you think that men just don’t know that there’s anything else out there? All they see is what’s on the tube sites. They just don’t know.

June Ann

I do because I do find that I have a lot of people that find me through some of the more visual platforms like Instagram. And those followers seem to love any kind of artistic content. They actually find me to be very diverse because I do make content that is a little more, you know, thought provoking—or not like thought provoking, but I put some thought into the set design and the visuals and the lights. And it’s not necessarily just a closeup of a spread.

August

That’s a really good point and a great question, Angie, because I really do think that so much of what we are drawn to is what we have been really guided to think is acceptable for us. 

Angie

Right. And I don’t think it’s just a male issue. I think it’s everybody. I think that this is what people think porn is. Men and women. They don’t realize that there’s an alternative out there.

August (narration)

Not that there’s anything wrong with enjoying the kind of porn you find on tube sites, as Angie pointed out. It’s just important to expand our views and know that other options exist. 

Angie

This isn’t a “good porn, bad porn” thing. I don’t ever want to say, “watch my porn, because it’s the only good porn there is.” If you’re going to embrace women’s sexuality, you need to find what does it for you and embrace that and watch that. And that might not be my stuff. And that’s okay, too. So it’s all about different markets and different visions.

August (narration)

Regardless of the type of porn you watch, it’s important to keep in mind that sex portrayed in porn tends to be pretty different from the sex you might have with a partner. Sure, there may be some similarities and you might get some ideas but most porn is not intended to be educational in any way. It just happens to be what more people have access to than, say, comprehensive sex ed. When I asked what some of the main differences between sex on the porn screen and sex in real life are, Angie had a take moment to think. 

Angie

There’s a lot of them. So let’s see here… The biggest difference between a lot of mainstream porn and real life sex is that so much porn sex lacks true intimacy. There’s not a lot of laughter…. There’s minimal, meaningful eye contact, seduction, foreplay. Once the leadup to the sex is over, it’s basically straight to what feels very formulaic. There’s no flow to it. 

August (narration)

What Angie shared there made me think of a Sssh film I watched in preparation for this episode. It’s called Gone and it centers on a woman who’s missing her partner, and we don’t realize why until the end. One of my favorite scenes involves no sex at all—or at least not what most people consider sex. We see the couple laughing and cuddling, sort of teasing each other, in bed. They’re both in pajamas, there’s nothing glam about it. But it feels intimate. And it gives us time to feel compelled by the story and drawn into the relationship, so that the spicier parts take us a bit by surprise, rather than feel predictable or cliche.

Mainstream porn also varies from real life sex in the, shall we say, ambiance department.

Angie

Lighting, I find, is very stark. There’s no mood lighting. Everything is brightly lit, because they need to see everything.

August

The perceived need to see certain things on the screen can also stand in the way of pleasure, if you were to try to replicate it. You can’t really stimulate the external clit, for example, and show that full anatomy on the screen at the same time; it would be covered up. And you certainly can’t show an up-close anatomical shot of, say, a G-spot orgasm. These are some of the reasons orgasms for people with vulvas on the screen can vary a lot from those in your bedroom. Angie has opinions about this.

Angie

A woman’s orgasm is always depicted through penetration, and never through clitoral stimulation. And that really, really irks me.

August

As Angie and I were talking about this, I could tell that June Ann’s wheels were turning. When I asked, she said yes. She had a lot to say about on-screen versus off-screen orgasms, based on her personal and professional experience. 

June Ann

I was extremely sexually active in my 20s, onscreen and offscreen. It was definitely more of a quantity thing. I just wanted to experience everything. I thought if I experienced a lot, I would eventually get to the quality. And I just had no clue. You know, I was a porn-educated, sexually-interested woman. And so then I get into my 30s, and basically every time I had sex, if I came, it was because I was stimulating my clit and that was the only time I came. And when it was in porn, it was basically whenever my clit was stimulated. I had never had a G spot orgasm, no internal orgasm, nothing. 

And so then it gets to my 30s. I start dating people and I find a partner that I felt open to communicate with, which is crazy because I always considered myself extremely open. I’ll talk about anything. Yet I didn’t take a step back to really open up about the simple things. And I told him I had never had an [internal] orgasm. And we completely slowed down in the bedroom. And I had my first internal orgasm at the age of 31, which I find, I don’t know. I’m thankful that I finally did it. But I just find it kind of crazy. And it kind of shifted my perspective of almost performing in porn, too, because I really saw firsthand how much a connection and intimacy was important. I didn’t even realize that. I don’t know if I didn’t want to believe that or, you know, because I was the “hard and tough” girl, I don’t know. But I’m thankful that I finally came around and put all that together.

August

June Ann brought up so many important points there. Deeper emotional intimacy and slowing down can bring more pleasure, no matter our gender or genitalia, yet where do we learn that? If, as she put it, you’re porn-educated, it might take some time and experience to figure that out. I also love that we can continually discover things about our bodies, sexuality and what feels good sexually throughout our entire lives.

Everything she shared really highlighted the lack of helpful sex education in our culture and many cultures. I asked Angie if she thinks that even though porn isn’t designed to educate whether it can help us learn in some ways.

Angie

I think it’s a great way to spice up a relationship. I think you can learn from porn—I say that ever so trepidatiously—if done going in with your eyes open. Realize that the performers on the screen, they’re professionals. They’re athletes. They know what they’re doing… I know if I tried some of the stuff June does, I would probably break my back…. 

August (narration)

Those are really important points. If you enjoy porn and want to use it to enhance your sex life, awareness seems huge. Speaking of awareness, if only we could all see what happens before the cameras roll on porn sets. 

Angie

I think one of my big concerns that we don’t see on the tube sites is what about consent, communication and acceptance? All of those things are really important. And I know on our sets and on Wastelands, even my husband’s BDSM, there’s a lot of communication and consent and talking and negotiation that happens. But we don’t see that as a consumer or as a viewer watching the tube sites. You don’t see what June, or any number of the other couples that work for Colin, you don’t see what goes on beforehand. 

How do we show that to the people that are going to the tube sites that are watching this? How do we let them know that all of this has been pre-negotiated? Even if it’s vanilla sex, it’s still pre-negotiated. How do we show people what happens before they start rolling? 

I mean, porn is entertainment. It is not education, even though you can learn something from it or you can spice up your your sex life. The bottom line is it’s fantasy. And I don’t know how we divide that, how we get people to realize that what they’re seeing is like watching Lord of the Rings or Star Trek, you know? It is a fantasy and it’s there to feed you and inspire you. You know?

August (narration)

I do know. And I think one way to expand that understanding is by having these conversations. I so appreciate that people like Angie and June Ann speak openly about these topics. Of course, it would be awesome if education around porn came up in early sex ed classes, too. I can dream.

The pre-sex negotiation piece Angie brought up made me think of a story you may have heard me share before, if you’ve been listening for a while. A listener wrote in, sharing that he and his partner had been doing a lot of anal sex because it was really prevalent in the porn they’d been watching. They were pretty young and each other’s firsts and they both assumed—without articulating it outloud—let’s do what we’ve seen in these videos. As it turned out, neither one of them was interested in anal or really enjoyed it. They were each only doing it because they thought the other partner wanted it. Obviously, that could’ve turned out to be a more challenging or painful experience. Thankfully they managed okay and were able to talk and even laugh about it before too long. Talking about the sex we’re about to have can be so, so important. As well as hot.

So June, Angie and their team at Ssssh recently created a film called Mirror Game that sounds fascinating—and I think really illustrates their artistic and creative approach. If someone walked in during this part of our conversation, they’d might think we were discussing a horror film or psych thriller. 

Angie

Mirror Game is the story of a book. The book is the protagonist, and it travels through time affecting people. So what it does is it brings out the parts of your personality that you’ve suppressed. So if you’re usually a very submissive people-pleaser, you all of a sudden become very aggressive. I’m sure this has happened to everybody, where you see somebody or you’re part of a conversation, and you really want to say something and you don’t, because you just don’t, right? Well, the book would say. So nothing is off limits. It just takes all that stuff that you’ve suppressed, all the parts of your personality that you’re working on—good, bad, ugly, doesn’t matter—brings it forward and boom, you’ve got a new person, interesting person, a conflicted, demonic person.

August

I love that there’s this suspense in these stories. What is going to happen? That’s really interesting. And obviously June did a wonderful job. You said you’re very familiar with her work. What is it about June that felt like such a good fit for this role.?

Angie

She’s a great, great actress. Just incredible. And we needed an actress that had a lot of depth and could pull this role off, because it’s a tough role to play. First, you’re working with somebody who’s not you, and you’re developing that character. On top of that, you’re then developing a secondary character, and the two of them are battling inside of you. That’s a tough role to play. To me, that’s a huge challenge to make two completely different women visually have the viewers see the eternal battle that they’re both going through. And you’re rooting for them and you’re wondering what’s going to happen. I’m not going to tell you the ending because the ending is not what people are going to assume it’s going to be. They think, “Oh, this is a shush production. We know how this is going to end.” They’re wrong. They are so wrong. She did just an incredible job. It was really amazing. And there were a couple of times she scared me. You did a great job. I couldn’t say anything more than that was a tough role that was handed to you. Most people have to develop one character. You had to develop two. You had to show an internal struggle between the two characters. That’s not easy. You did a great job, June. If I stroke your ego any more, you’re not going to be able to leave your apartment, your head’s going to be so big. 

August

It’s so nice to get that encouraging feedback, I’m sure. June, could you tell us a bit about your process? How you approached these characters, what you loved about them, maybe what was most challenging?

June Ann

It’s interesting because you get the script and when you read it, it’s very flat, right? It doesn’t come alive, yet, but then when you actually get to set and you start working with it, it hits you. It finally embodies you. I have a dear friend from my past that helped me a little with character development and working with the script and he really just had me focus on each scene. Just focus on what got the character there. What’s the motivation? Because if you know what got him there, you’ll know what to do there. You know how to react, you know how your character is, you know how that character will react. So, just think about that. So I just focused on that little thing for each scene we found. You don’t film everything; they get edited together. I’m very emotionally charged in very different ways in the scene. So it was kind of an emotional ping pong. I was having the time of my life inside because I’m a Gemini, so for me this was like the role I was meant to play.

August (narration)

Angie, Sssh and their performers really seem to approach adult films in ways similar to mainstream movies—I felt a bit like I was back in my acting days, hearing about the script and June’s process. But there are some notable differences, and not just in terms of smoldering sex scenes. There are also the not-so-sexy parts of the business.

Angie

You know when they say in Hollywood that it was filmed on a shoestring budget, we don’t even have a fiber from a shoestring budget. It’s tough being an adult filmmaker. We’re discriminated against when it comes to locations. People don’t want their businesses, property or brands associated with adult films. We’re a really tiny production company, which June can attest to, so we have to wear many hats. We don’t have a lot of people; we’re not a huge production crew. We have to be skilled in a lot of different areas of filmmaking. I might be the director but I’ve also operated the audioboom, the cameras, script supervisor, art designer and prop department. It’s all me, assistant editor.

August (narration)

I really respect all of that, the challenges and the determination to carry on and thrive as best they can. June sees a lot of hypocrisy in the ways porn productions and sex work are treated, too. 

As a performer and content creator, June really sees how deep the obstacles and stereotypes involved with being in a sex-related business go.

June Ann

It’s just such a detriment to interpersonal dynamics and communication because everybody talks about this holistic life experience, right? But yet that holistic life experience is not supposed to have sex in it. That’s supposed to be completely compartmentalised outside of everything, and I just don’t see it. I can be smart. I can be sexy. I can cook. I can design vaccines. I can have orgasms. We can do it all.

August (narration)

I love that so much. I also appreciate this wisdom about porn use from Angie.

Angie

I think they should pay for it. There is no such thing as free porn. You know, June’s not going to work for free. My editor is not going to work for free. My DP is not going to work for free. There is no such thing as free porn. Somebody has paid all these people. And when that content is stolen and put up on a tube site for free, that really hurts the producers. And it’s a trickle down effect. If all our content is stolen and we’re not making money, then production houses can’t pay as much because all their stuff is being stolen. It’s just this vicious circle.

August (narration)

Because Sssh is a streaming platform, they haven’t had to deal with the amount of pirating problems Wasteland and other studios face but she still stands strongly by that principle. For June, well, she’s basically had to embrace some radical acceptance.

June AnnI don’t create anything that I don’t expect to be pirated. I hate to say it, but even doing adult entertainment, don’t do it if you’re worried about anyone finding it because that one person you’re worried about will find it. Yes, it’ll be the first person that finds it. Murphy’s Law will work against you, I promise. So it’s just kind of the same thing.

August (narration)

At the end of the day, June said, she and many performers create so much content that stealing content is unfortunately bound to happen. She called it “part of the beast” and said she just has to hope that it helps with marketing. She’ll sometimes include tags or links to her website in strategic ways so that future paying customers might find it.

June Ann

But that’s me as a content creator working on sites like OnlyFans and IsMyGirl. It’s a completely different thing when it comes to studio work.

So I would say to people when you do look at the free sites and you find that one performer you like, go to her site, like her stuff, follow her social media, get her premium content. Or when you do find a studio that you really like, like sssh.com, go to their site, support them, just like you would your favorite musician. Support your favorite porn star, support your favorite porn studio, because that’s how you’re going to keep that content going, if you really like that person or that studio’s content. That’s the way you’re gonna keep seeing it, is if you support them. I’ve been around the industry for almost two decades now, and I do know people from early in my career that are no longer in the industry because the performer pay tanked because studios couldn’t pay the performers as well anymore.

August (narration)

Before I asked Angie and June for their top sexual empowerment advice, I asked them to share where we can all learn more about them and explore their work.

June AnnI’ll go first. I’m short and easy. Those are two very true facts. So, you can basically find all my links at jadextraextra.com. There you can find my only fans and my porn hub and all of my premium links and all my social media links.

Angie

You can see my work, June’s work and Mirror Game at shush.com that’s Sssh.com. Mirror Game will not be released until mid September but there are lots of other movies there. And lots of June. If you prefer June doing BDSM, you can go to Wasteland.com.

August (narration)

I loved what June wanted you all to hear about cultivating positive body image.

June Ann

Never let your body image hold you back from anything. I can tell you that I have filmed porn 40 pounds heavier than I am now. And 20 pounds lighter than I am now. And it’s all beautiful. Rolls are gorgeous. It’s all natural. Love yourself.

August (narration)

Angie’s wise words really apply to any and all life areas.

Angie

Do what you’re passionate about. Do what you believe in. Don’t let anybody ever discourage you from doing or realizing your vision and following your heart. Just do it.

August (hosting)

Embrace your body and do what you believe in. Yes and yes. Find direct links to June Ann and Angie Rowntree’s work down in the show notes. 

Now I’m so pleased to welcome Dr. Megan Fleming, our resident sex and relationships therapist, back for this week’s listener question. It came from Brandy, who wrote this:

My boyfriend is convinced that his penis is small (it’s not) and he wants to do this penis pump thing for it to be bigger. He brought it up since finding out that some of the porn I was watching is the “big dick” kind. I told him that’s different from wanting his body to change. I think he is great the way he is and regardless I am not sure if those pumps are even safe. What are your thoughts?

Brandy, thank you so much for writing in and for your compassion for wanting your boyfriend to be safe. And for appreciating his body just the way it is. Here’s what Dr. Megan of  greartlifegreatsex.com had to say: 

Dr. Megan

First, I am thrilled to be back. I’ve missed you, August, and the Girl Boner community. That being said, you know, I’m all about practicing what I preach. And so for August I prioritized pleasure and really had an amazing time, sort of despite these challenging times, with my family. And so I’m refreshed and renewed and thrilled to be back and excited to start answering your questions. 

So let’s start with Brandy’s question. It’s great that you’re letting your boyfriend know that even though he saw you watching porn and part of the porn that you like or turn on might be big dicks or penises that is not your only turn on. You have a repertoire. And most importantly, you’re satisfied, really enjoying all the ways that your partner can please you. 

So that being said, penis pumps are really designed as vacuum devices for erectile dysfunction. Basically, your partner would place the plastic tube over his penis and it’s a pump, hand or battery operated. It’s increasing blood flow so it’s going to give him a firm, maybe firmer, than his penis would be. So we might get slightly a sense of more girth or a little bit in terms of length, but ultimately, it’s just making as full an erection as it can be, and then at the base they put on a constrictive device or what is referred to as a cock ring. 

So some tips to make this a less uncomfortable or painful experience is to definitely shave. This is something you could do together and make it sort of sexy fun; shaving his pubes also can add a little bit of length visually. You don’t want the ring to get caught on those pubes, that’d be a little uncomfortable. And the other thing I would definitely recommend is using a lubricant both on the shaft and base of his penis as well as on the edge of the pump so that you get an airtight seal, and the lubricant is definitely going to come in handy to take that ring on and off, in a way that would be less uncomfortable, because it has a little bit of slide to it. 

The only risks really known are if your boyfriend might be on a blood thinning medication, it would be contraindicated, and or have sickle cell or any kind of blood disorder because we’d be concerned if anybody has susceptibility to blood clots or bleeding. The other thing is that you don’t leave the constricted device on for more than 30 minutes. Initially, there might be a little bruising or discomfort but that ultimately it might just increase his sensation, if it feels fuller and a little bit firmer. 

Everything in the bedroom, in my mind, is about exploring, trying new things on and adding more things to our erotic menu. So as always speak to your boyfriend and we’d love to hear how it goes.

August (hosting)

Thanks so much, Dr. Megan. That was all really interesting to learn about. Brandy, I think if your beau wants to go with the penis pump, or something a bit simpler, like a cock ring, you can really support him with those steps. I also think having more conversations about any insecurities he might have could be helpful. You could also try a fun toy called a penis sleeve. For sure, pleasure comes—pun embraced—in all sizes.

If you have a question for me or for Dr. Megan, please reach out to us through the link in the show notes. And if you appreciated this episode, I would so appreciate a rating and review. 

This episode was hosted and produced by me, August McLaughlin, with audio management by Makenzie Mizell, the founder and organizer of the Period podcast network. KM Huber provided transcript support. Thanks so much for listening and have a beautiful, Girl Boner-embracing week.