Bisexuality, Demisexuality and Coming Out with Carolina Hoyos

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Bisexuality, Demisexuality and Coming Out with Carolina Hoyos

a lightly edited Girl Boner Radio transcript

Carolina: 

But then she was like, “Oh, my God, I didn’t know.” And I was like, “I haven’t told anybody but you because we’re having this conversation and you’re open to hearing it, but I’m giving you an example of how ridiculous is it that our progressive family, I can’t even come out to them? Me, as a huge progressive living-your-truth person? Like, isn’t that ridiculous? But if I’d see more of ourselves on screen, and if my family had seen more of it, I would have been more comfortable, too.”

August (narration):

Carolina Hoyos is an Afro-Indigenous (Quechua-Kichwa) actor, playwright, director, songwriter and voice artist who joined me in the studio back in 2019 for a conversation about her sexual empowerment journey, common myths about demisexuality and bisexuality and more. We also touched on the play we were in together years ago, which is how we met.

Today, I am excited to re-release much of that conversation, in my former, straight interview style—a throw back of sorts—plus a special invite to check out Carolina’s latest.

[encouraging, acoustic music]

August: 

Thank you so much for being here, Carolina.

Carolina: 

Thank you for having me. It’s so good to see you.

August:

So we met in a play we were in, which feels like a lifetime ago. We were playing different women that the director/writer had dated. What do you most recall from that experience?

Carolina:

You know what, it was actually my first experience being in production with mostly women. And it was a different experience, because I grew up a tomboy. So it was at first it was like, what is happening? But it was beautiful, because I got to bond with everyone. 

And I don’t know if you remember Suteara. She wasn’t actually in the play, but she was helping us. And I remember I needed to put my hair kind of up a little bit. I had bobby pins and I had like 15 bobby pins trying to put my hair up. And she was like, “Wait, no, no, no, this is wrong.” She takes them all out. She’s like, “You just need to do a little X with them.” So she helped me and I was like, Thank you, mommy. I felt like I had a sister that was kind of teaching me the ropes.

August:

So a more nurturing atmosphere, and collaborative. I felt like we had a really good vibe, for the most part. I thought we all got along well. And it was a really emotional piece.

Carolina:

It was definitely heavy. And I think the writer director really honored the many colors of a woman and what we go through. And I know in that version, he was in the play, but in the following versions, because he kept developing it, he wasn’t in the play—because the play really wasn’t about him.

August:

It wasn’t. And I do think that that was probably a smart decision. It felt to me like it was a healing process for him to write, which I understand, as a writer, and it’s so cathartic. And it grew and blossomed and in all these different things. It’s interesting, because I actually sang in it, but you didn’t. [Carolina laughs] You’re a professional singer. Were you sitting there going, like, why are they singing?

Carolina:

No! I loved being kind of anonymous, because I’d spent so many years in New York. I’d performed with a few different people, but with a band that I was in for four years, and I went through like the gamut with the label system. I had a lawyer, I had all that stuff happening, and doing showcases. And then there was the chance that I was getting to go solo, to have a real career. And I was stubborn. I was like “I want to be in a band. I don’t want that.” And then that came back to bite me anyway. Because once I moved to LA then that band kind of resented me for moving and it was like I have to move here for my health. New York wasn’t good for me. You know, health comes first. I can’t just be about career. If I don’t have good health, I can’t go for a career. It’s not going to fulfill me.

August:

I don’t think that anybody who approaches careers in the arts, from the artist standpoint, can because artistry requires so much nurturing. There’s this, I think, false belief that you have to be tortured all the time to be an artist. 

Carolina:

Yes. And I do not agree with that. You can go from that and have inspiration from that. But it’s so important to heal from it to really be able to communicate and help others because otherwise you’re wallowing and you’re like, Come, be –  what is it, misery loves company – miserable with me.

August:

Right! Which isn’t really fun. So I actually don’t know a lot about your upbringing. I’m curious what you learned about sex and sexuality growing up, I know you grew up in the South. 

Carolina:

Yes, I grew up in the South. I’m a recovering Catholic. So everything was, you know, to have private schools and my sister went to private school. Both my parents were in private when they were in boarding school, Catholic boarding schools. But they weren’t that strict. I want to say my family is really progressive. But still just growing up in a Latino household. It’s like, that kind of overbearing sense of guilt. 

One set of cousins one on is particularly religious. I had a picture once when I had my bareback showing, but it looked like a kind of jeans ad. And they were just so offended. They were like, we don’t need to see that. And it was like, my fiance took that picture. He’s in the picture with me. It wasn’t like even a photo shoot – it wasn’t like I was doing that on a professional thing. There was a shoot between us. And it was we made it into a flyer to promote our first show actually together for a photography exhibit. So it was such a beautiful photograph that we were like, “We need to use this. It’s art,” you know? But they saw it as sexual and demonic or whatever. 

So growing up, it was still kind of a struggle of, what’s right, what’s wrong. Everything was limited. But I had experiences early on and my mother was so great. As soon as I told her, she was like, “Okay, we’re getting you on birth control.”

August:

That’s amazing. Because it sounds like you are kind of entrenched in the ideas for purity culture, right? And it sounds like your mom probably had learned – I think so many people who pay it forward in a positive way. We learned the hard way. She had to experience that same kind of shaming, and she didn’t want you to have that.

Carolina:

Yeah. And I’m sure it’s because times have changed. But she was a late bloomer, in terms of having children. She didn’t have me till she was 41. I’m the youngest, so she had her first child when she was 32 through 33. But her mother had her when she was 19 or 18. So I think, obviously over centuries and generations, times have changed, but she’s just one step removed from a mother who had her pretty young. So I think it was when I was 14. I was like, “Mom, I did it.” She’s like, “Let’s go get you on birth control.”

August:

That’s also awesome that you could go to her and say that.

Carolina:

Yeah, yeah. So that was a nice thing. I knew I had that comfort. And it was something I didn’t know anything about. Schools still aren’t great at teaching sex education and prevention. Abstinence is not going to work. It’s not going to work.

August:

We all know this, anecdotally. I mean, no one’s ever surprised by the studies, but they do lots of studies. And the more you teach abstinence, the more people have STIs and have less safe sex and the more unplanned pregnancy. I mean, it’s so evident. Yeah, it doesn’t, it doesn’t work. So that’s, that’s amazing that she did that. 

[encouraging, acoustic music]

August:

I love the piece that you wrote for Free2Love, called Two Spirits. And you shared that you’re bisexual demisexual. Given that you had limited access, as so many of us due to sex education, and that particular identity is even now still not talked about very much in broad culture, when did you start to explore what your sexual identity was, that it wasn’t necessarily this Catholic idea of heteronormativity?

Carolina:

Well as a young girl, I knew I was attracted to both sexes. There was experimentation as a young young girl. And as I got older, again, because of the Catholic thing, I didn’t see that represented anywhere in the media. And I was trying to kind of shove it away, and it kept coming up.

By the time I was 14 or 15, I remember taking a nap on my friend’s couch and this girl that would come over. She was about my age. She would always flirt with me. And I was and at this point, I was like, Oh, I don’t know what to do with this scary I don’t know, what is this right? Is this wrong? She was kind of tickling me and brushing up on my arm to wake me up. And then when I woke up, I’m like right next to her. And I kind of froze. But then I was like, this doesn’t feel wrong. 

August:

You froze, probably, because it felt good. 

Carolina:

Yeah. And I just didn’t know how to embrace it. And then I think around that time, I started going to raves. Anything goes there. And then it was more accepted. And even friends of mine, they opened up to me about their sexuality and then it became a conversation. The principles of the rave culture when I was in it, were PLUR: our peace, love, unity, respect. 

So we accepted everyone, it was very what we consider a counterculture. But everyone from all walks of life was accepted and celebrated. And we didn’t know, you know, we didn’t. It’s not that we didn’t know but we kind of ignored the mainstream and what they thought of it, we still kind of, you know, went into like, we would go to concerts and stuff and still participate in the mainstream, but we knew we were powerful together supporting each other.

August:

That’s huge. Community is so important. 

[single guitar strum]

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[single guitar strum]

August:

The one time that demisexuality, I think, has come up in all my episodes was in an episode on asexuality. I interviewed this wonderful woman, Lauren Jankowski. She started Asexual Artists to highlight and elevate artists who identify as asexual because she saw such a vast gap as far as representation. And she’s a writer, and she read all of these books and she never saw herself depicted her her identity depicted. And I really appreciated how she defined asexuality.

Lauren (clip with soft, jazzy guitar music in the background):

The most general definition of asexuality is a lack of sexual attraction or desire. It’s actually kind of a spectrum though of orientations. So you’ll have like hetero-romantic asexuals, homo-romantic asexuals, pan-romantic asexual. And then you’ll have gray As who will occasionally experience sexual attraction only in certain circumstances. You have demisexual, who will only experience sexual attraction after forming a very strong emotional bond with a person. And then you have people like me. I’m an a-romantic asexual. I don’t experience any kind of desire for an intimate relationship or romantic relationship. And I find a lot of satisfaction in platonic relationships, like friendships and so on.

August:

I’m curious if that’s how you would define demisexuality. She mentioned it’s after you have a deep emotional connection.

Carolina:

Yeah. And that was something that after years of like fully realizing what defined me it was that that is what connects me, and I’m still exploring whether it includes pansexuality. But whether it’s a man or a woman, it’s usually a connection that happens first, and then an intimacy of closeness and like pushy with saying platonic friendships, that there’s that connection, and then it could happen, that I’m sexually attracted to them, or romantically and sexually attracted to them. But it’s usually linked to a real deep friendship first.

August:

I really appreciate that. It’s interesting, because I think that for people who’ve never heard of this term, when they hear that they go, Well, I like to get to know a person first, which is different from an identity, right? 

Carolina:

Yes. 

August:

So speak to what that difference is…how do you know the difference? 

Carolina:

Well, if we want to get a little graphic… [laughs]

August:

You can. Graphic it out.

Carolina:

There’ve been times when I’ve tried to engage in sexual activity with someone that I was kind of into, kind of feeling something for, but really didn’t know them that well, things just wouldn’t work. So it’s like my body saying no.

August:

The physical arousal doesn’t happen.

Carolina:

It doesn’t happen. And things just get awkward. And it’s like, this isn’t flowing. And it’s really because we haven’t spent enough time together, and I’m not even still sure that I like you at that point, at that level, enough to really go there. And to give my all, because it’s energy to that I’m giving someone. 

The reason I really want to put a platform to is because it’s such a stereotype that Latinos are sex driven and sex crazy. And I’ve had representation and different people who were like, “I never took you as the type to not want to be nude on camera all the time.” And it was like, “What? Wow. How do you see me?”

August:

That’s so one dimensional and stereotyping, right? I’m really glad that you’re speaking to that specifically because that is, it’s like the sassy sexual seductress. And you’re like, “No, I would like to get to know each other, with clothes on.”

Carolina:

Yeah. 

[jazzy guitar riff…]

August:

I was reading about different myths from the Demisexual. Society. They said that one thing that comes up a lot is there’s this presumption that like, if you’re demisexual, then you would never ever ever have casual sex. I mean, that term is interesting in itself. And they said that they may. I mean, you can kind of put people all into one single box. 

Carolina:

Exactly. And I think I’ve had maybe one nightstand, but it turned into like a few weeks, you know?

August:

So maybe you did sense an emotional connection.

Carolina:

Yeah, it was intense. It was immediate. 

August:

Because the emotional thing was there right away.

Carolina:

Exactly. So when two spirits are really linked together and flow, then that’s different. And that’s rare. That’s super, super, super rare.

August (narration):

At that point in the interview, I shared another clip from my my interview with Lauren Jankowski, about a common myth related to asexuality: that there’s a hierarchy of love – and only certain types of love matter.

Lauren (clip excerpt):

And when I was growing up, I was in an environment where it was weird to tell your friends that you loved them. And that struck me as kind of odd because I was like, Well, I feel this just as strongly about this person as I do about a family member. It’s love. 

August (narration):

She told me that there’s this idea that love has to be ranked in order of importance—often with kids or a romantic partner at the top. But as Lauren exemplifies so well, you can have a life full of love, without either.

August:

I thought that was a really important point that there isn’t this hierarchy of love. And that when we assume that, then we erase people.

Carolina:

That’s right. Yeah, I’ve had friends who were so dead set on achieving that, because that was always the goal. And then once they would, they would disappear. And they would forget about their friend family, even their family family, they, you know, that would fall down the priority list. And that’s just, I love saying I love you to my friends and to my dog. And to my family members, but yeah, it’s important. It’s all around us. It shouldn’t just be focused on one specific aspect.

August:

Yeah, yeah. That made me think of another really common myth about bisexuality, which is there’s this other kind of presumption, almost the opposite, that you are then attracted to everybody.

Carolina:

Yes. Oh my gosh, we’re greedy. We’re overly sexual. We were down for orgies and threesomes. We’re always the unicorn. Oh, my goodness. [laughs]

August:

Which is a really interesting pairing with demisexuality, right? To me, that’s really fascinating, because I read that, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but that a lot of people who are demisexual, associate more and understand and relate more to people who are asexual than someone who is heterosexual yet people think demisexual people are basically like, straight, but just emotional. And I was like, ouch. That sounds really severe to me. Is that something that you have perceived?

Carolina:

Yes. I can’t tell you how many stereotypes I’ve run across and propositions I’ve had made to me, and I tell people to lose my number when that happens. But it seems like a lot of people can’t separate the two or can’t combine the two. They can’t see them living in the same space. For me, it’s doesn’t it doesn’t matter what presents are on the outside. It’s really what’s on the inside the heart and the mind. If those are connecting with me, then there’s possibility for more to happen romantically or sexually both, hopefully, you know? And rare that I’ll even act upon it. Because it might be like, you know, what, I just really admire this person, and I’m feeling other things, but it doesn’t mean I actually have to do anything about it. Because that could get complicated, too. Just because there’s still an energy transfer that happens. And then I know that energy, like we were saying, might be taken away from my actual friends, my actual family, the things I have going on in my own life. So it’s actually way more level headed than to be perceived as emotional.

August:

That’s interesting. Yeah, it’s really interesting and also being demisexual. You just highlighted another really important fact that I think could be misperceived, which is If you’re demisexual, and you have strong emotional feelings for someone that doesn’t there for me, you’re going to want to have sex with that. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Carolina:

There’s an attraction. And yeah, it doesn’t mean I’m going to act on it. But then I have to think I must really admire this person. And there’s more to explore as friendship than anything. Yeah, but just maybe more energy to give to that person in some way.

[acoustic, encouraging music]

August:

In your story that you shared, it was really lovely to read about how your family. You wanted to come out to them. You had mixed feelings. And at one point, you thought you would just wait until you’re with a man. Tell us how that unfolded.

Carolina:

So I actually auditioned for a, a pretty major role on the stars, the stars series called Vita. And it’s pretty much the first Latinx show that shows different lifestyles, it shows, bisexual shows gay, it shows a trans people in the Latinx world. And that’s just something we’ve never seen. Never, never, never. And again, remember I said my family was very progressive. But not having seen ourselves represented. I was like, I still don’t know how they’re going to take it if one of their own is part of this world. So I auditioned for the show, and I don’t get nervous acting. It just doesn’t happen. I feel like if I’m playing somebody else, it’s kind of safe. 

But this was so close to home that I was like, if I book this, I got in my head, if I booked this, I’m going to have to have that talk. It’s going to be a forced talk with my family. Because I’m going to want them to see this. It’s an important work that’s out there that we need as representation. But I thought, I’m not ready. And so it ruined my audition. 

My manager has known me for 15 years, and she’s known me when I’ve dated both men and women. And she’s seen the whole, you know, range of who I am. When she saw my first tape, she said, “No, I know you. This is not you. Something’s holding you back. Please do this again. And know that you’re supported. You’re loved.” She’s my cheerleader. She knew. 

So I did it again, and it was better. But you could tell that there was something limiting me. So I knew I was like, this is affecting my work now and my and my art and my passion and, and an important work that we need as a society in our community. So I worked up the nerve, and I started exposing them to more media that was inclusive. Just little hints, little drops here and there. Even, like my father, I would take him to a lot of theater with people of color. I took him to “Kinky Boots.” Oh, he loved it. And afterwards, he was like, “was that a man?” 

And then I could just see his humor was changing a little bit. Some of the things he was sharing with me were from that world. And I was like, Okay, it looks like it’s almost time. Then my sister-in-law and I were talking about media representation. And she’s a white woman, of Scottish descent. She’s married to my brother. I love her dearly. And she wanted to understand. 

We were talking about gross  generalizations of different cultures. And so she was learning and she was actually asking questions, and I was giving her the time. And, and at one point, it came to the conversation of what about sexual representation, sexual orientation representation? You know, should straight people be able to play gay and vice versa? And I said, you know, it’s silly that I’m 41 years old, and I still haven’t come up to my family. Because I’ve never seen myself represented.

August:

Are you sitting there feeling like, here it comes? Was it about to come out of you, literally? 

Carolina:

No, I think it was through texts. But then she was like, “Oh, my God, I didn’t know.” And I was like, “I haven’t told anybody but you because we’re having this conversation and you’re open to hearing it, but I’m giving you an example of how ridiculous is it that our progressive family, I can’t even come out to them? Me, as a huge progressive living your truth person? Like, isn’t that ridiculous? But if I’d see more of ourselves on screen, and if my family had seen more of it, I would have been more comfortable, too.

So then she said, “Whenever you’re ready, I’m here for you if you want help.” So then the next time I was there for the holidays, and I told my my niece and I somehow it came out I can’t remember how but I got emotional and that she said she was like, you know so many of my friends in school are out and you know, it’s it’s a beautiful thing to see. And I was like, that’s not how it was. There were people that were out but…it was still not a normal thing, you know, for us. And she knew all of the key words to say. It was like “wow, someone so young has these words in this knowledge? That gives me hope.” 

So the next time the whole family was together, it came up, and I let it all out. And my sister, probably the more religious one in our immediate family, said, “You’re more important than God.” 

August:

That gave me chills. Talk about love being powerful in every form. I mean, that’s above her faith, even. She’s saying, you are my sister. That’s beautiful. Did it change your relationship? Did you feel a shift with your family?

Carolina:

I did. Because I feel like for so many years, I was living in New York. I grew up outside of DC and Virginia, and spent a lot of time in Baltimore as well. And I feel like I was just so far removed that they didn’t have to see my lifestyle in New York or LA. They came and visited me once, and they met my girlfriend at the time, but they thought she was a friend. I wanted to introduce her as my girlfriend, and I chickened out thinking maybe this isn’t isn’t the one to introduce. And I don’t want to have that pressure on either the family or her. I have to get to that point first. That was like 10, 12, 13 years ago… I felt like they didn’t need to know. But now I’m fully an open book and I discuss things with them. It’s beautiful. It’s different.

August:

Has that impacted your artistry as well? Because I imagine even though you compartmentalized, it seemed. Yeah. But to have this secret, because it sounds like you’ve always been close to your family. Yeah. Did unleashing that influence your creativity?

Carolina:

Big time. I think it’s made it so then nothing is off limits. Spending more time with my father a few years ago, I started writing about him and…he’s a damn comedian. He’s so funny. So now I think I’ve become more comfortable writing about what I know, rather than trying to suppress it and just be vague in a song about it, or play a character about it. It’s like, alright, let’s write the story and be truthful. 

[encouraging, acoustic music]

August:

So at the end of your article, you shared this really lovely message to your younger self. Do you mind if I read it? 

Carolina:

Oh, please do. 

August:

“He said to my younger self, you can do it. Don’t wait. Work on yourself and don’t run away heal your traumas. You’ll have so much more time to be 100% free and 100% You deserve to be happy. You deserve to embrace your individuality. Be proud. Be fierce. Be you.” What do you think your younger self would think of you today? Or hearing that?

Carolina:

Oh, man. My younger self would like high five me hug me and probably come on tour with me.

August:

How cool would that be?! That could be another meaning for your Two Spirit. Do you feel an inner child sense?

Carolina:

Oh, yeah. I was just saying this to someone…. This is weird. But I feel like a lot of the healing that I’ve done with my dad and with my family. It says if our inner child has been holding hands, and leading us both through that. It’s been really beautiful. Yeah, I always think about my inner child and how can I make them more comfortable? Which translates to how can I make, you know, my nephews and nieces and their lives better.

August:

Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for joining me today. It’s awesome to see you.

Carolina: 

Thank you. It’s good to see you, too!

[acoustic chord riff]

August (narration):

Learn more about the brilliant Carolina Hoyos at carolinahoyos.com. Recently, she directed, produced and performed in the Indigiqueer solo film festival, which features Indigenous solo performers who identify as Two Spirit, Queer, TransFemme, and Pan, with stories on discovering queerness, reclaiming power, declaring pronouns, finding joy in exploring gender transition and celebrating being Two Spirit. Carolina’s piece is called “Coming Out.”

A watch party is tentatively scheduled for February 2nd at 7pm Pacific time, and you can view it through the end of February. I cannot wait to check it out and I hope you will, too. 

Check out Carolina’s film and festival here: Indigiqueer Identity: Reclaiming Past, Present, and Future

If you’re enjoying Girl Boner Radio, I’d love to hear from you by way of a review on Apple Podcasts or the iTunes Store. To support this show and get fun extras, join me on Patreon at patreon.com/girlboner. Thanks so much for listening.

[outro music that makes you wanna dance…]