Awkward Dates and Romance Novels: EF Dodd and Kelly Reynolds

“Awkward Dates and Romance Novels”

a Girl Boner Radio transcript

Kelly: So my first inclination is run. And then my second is just that I have such a slew of follow up questions. Like is this a hobby or is this somebody’s job? Do they work in law enforcement? Do they work at the morgue? Did the person know what their job was when they went on the date? Um, so many questions. 

August: And then if you found out that it was somebody that they know who died?

Kelly: That person needs to start a podcast. They should not be dating. They should be starting a True Crime podcast.

August: There you go. Maybe that’s what they were doing. Oh my gosh. Which, you should get consent. Do not record your dates, people. 

Kelly: That’s a lot. Yeah, that is a lot. I would feel like I was kind of in the middle of an episode of, like, Dateline. It’s like somebody showed up on our date and was like, “By the way, this is what we know..,”. And I’m just like, where are the cameras? Who’s recording? What’s going on? Because this can’t, this can’t be real.

[acoustic music]

August narration: 

That was author and podcaster, Kelly Reynolds, responding to the premise of the first awkward date you’ll hear about in this episode. Thankfully, no actual violence happened on the date. 

That would’ve been far more than just awkward. But Kelly’s response to fellow author, EF Dodd’s, awkward date experience will make total sense shortly.

Here’s the thing about awkwardness during dates. One person’s “awkward” might be another person’s awesome…or at least, not awkward. 

That’s really what dating is about, in my opinion, at least partly. Finding someone who sees the awesome in your awkward and vice versa. And of course, awkwardness that’s a turn off is equally important intel. Unfortunately for most of us, it’s not uncommon for one person on a date to sense awkwardness while the other is having a dandy old time. There are always more than one side to a story.

Kelly and EF may appreciate those different perspectives more than most, given that they’re professional writers. They also know the importance of creating sexy and strengthening stories, in real life and in fiction. We’ll get into that a bit, too.

First, let’s delve into that Dateline-esque happening — I suppose we could call it Dateline-adjacent. [lightly suspenseful music starts….]

It took place when EF had just finished her first year in grad school. She was spending the summer working two jobs, and fitting in as much fun as possible in her spare time, with her best friend from high school.

EF: We just made it our mission that summer to just have the best time we could.

I was 21, so that kind of tells you what we had planned. [laughs] So we were living in an apartment together, just living our best lives. But I mean, this was probably the summer of 2000. So if you wanted to meet somebody, you didn’t log onto the internet, you didn’t swipe left or right, you got up, got dressed, went out and saw what you could see at restaurants, clubs, bars, whatever. So it was a much more in person reaction.

So she and I had gone out to, you know, one of our favorites. And I met this guy and he was cute, an attractive guy. 

And he said his name and she knew who he was, but I didn’t. And she said, “Well, you know, that’s a DJ for X radio station.” And I said, “No, I had no idea.” 

He was probably 25, 20 really just starting out in his own radio career, I guess. And so we hit it off, you know, had a few drinks and he invited me to go out, I guess maybe the following weekend or something. So I said, “Sure.” 

So my first clue should have been when he said, “Well, let’s meet at my house, and then we’ll go from there.”But again, I was 21, so stranger danger wasn’t in my brain . So I said, “Sure, that’s fine.” So I drove over. He had a cute little apartment, and he says, “Well, I’ll just cook dinner here.” And I thought, Well, okay, I’m sure I’m fine, whatever. And it was fine.

And so then he said, “Well, I know you’re getting ready to go into X profession, so I’d like to get your opinion on something.”

And I’m sitting here thinking, what? And I said, “Okay, sure.” Random. You know, I mean, I’ve literally just finished my first year of grad school, so I don’t know how much help I’m gonna be.

And he says, “You know, my mom passed away when I was,” I forget what he said, high school or something like that. And I said, “Oh, I’m really sorry to hear that.” And then he turns around in his chair, and I will never forget this.

He just slaps down this folder on the table. And he’s like, “Yeah, and here’s a copy of her autopsy report.” And I was like, what? In the middle of dinner. And I said, “Okay.” And he said, “Well, I’d like to get your opinion on this.”

Now, keep in mind I was in grad school. I was not in med school. I was not getting ready to become a medical examiner. I was not in any way, shape or form in the medical or police or investigative field in any way, shape or form. Don’t know what he thought I could add to this. And he proceeds to go through this report with me, like page by page has pushed his plate to the side.

I am just no longer interested in eating and really just wanna get the hell outta there because this has gone from weird to what? 

August: Oh, my goodness.

EF: Yeah. and you know, he was asking me questions, “Well, do you think it was really an accident? Or do you think blah, blah, blah?” And I said, “I, I don’t know. I don’t know what you want me to say. I don’t have answers to these questions.”

And like, he just kept asking all this stuff and showing me, you know, “well I think this, and you know, you can tell by this part and da da,” and I was like, “I really can’t tell anything from that.”

 At that point I just, I needed to just at least get out of the room and I said, “Well, hey,” I said, You know, “can I use your restroom right quick?”

And he was like, “Yeah, sure.” He said, “Don’t use the one in the hall. You can use the one in my bedroom.” And I was like, “Okay, cool.” So I go in there and I’m really just trying to collect my thoughts and just figure out a way to say, I have got to go, you know, come up with some explanation to leave and just end this odyssey right there.

Well, so I go in and I’m like, Well, I’m in here, so I’m gonna at least pee. And I look, and I promise you, it was as though a tyrannosaurus rex had pooped in that toilet. And it wasn’t just that there was poop in there. You could tell that it had at some point almost overflowed because it was like poop soup in there.And I was like, I’m gonna throw up. Because there’s no way you don’t know that’s in there. 

August: Right. And he directed you to this bathroom? 

EF: Yes. 

August: That’s strange. 

EF: He had another bathroom that he told me not to use, so at that point I was just like, I have got to go. And so I you know, I sat back down at the table for a minute and this was back in the day of flip phones.

And so I just grabbed my phone outta my purse, which thank God I had just kind of put beside me at the table. And I said, “Oh my gosh. My roommate just texted. She needs me back at the apartment. I hate to cut this short, but I’ve really gotta go.” He was like, “Oh no, I hate to hear that. Blah, blah, blah. Are you sure you can’t stay?” And I was like, “No, no, no. She really needs me. Gotta go.” And so I just got the hell out of there, . 

August: Oh my goodness. Okay. So, wow. I have a couple of questions.

So first autopsy photos in general, I feel like some people might be especially squeamish, like I have a sister who if she sees a bruise, she feels a little sick, right? 

EF: Oh yeah. I have a cousin like that, like if she sees blood at all, she’s out. She’s either gonna pass out or she’s gonna vomit. Yeah.

August: Right. So consent is very important. For you personally, was the discomfort more around this is so out of left field and it feels inappropriate, or were you also kind of, I really am uncomfortable seeing this dead body? 

EF: Well, you know, it wasn’t there. I don’t wanna say there wasn’t anything graphic because there were a couple photos of the person’s body, but it wasn’t like wounds or anything that I could see or whatever. And I don’t even remember really looking at that. I just remember being so taken aback by thinking it was okay to slap the autopsy report down there on the table and ask my opinion on it.

You know, my heart goes out to anybody that has lost a parent, especially if you lose a parent early in life, that’s a devastating experience. I’m lucky enough that both of my parents are still alive, so I don’t want to belittle his, pain and all of that that he went through.

And especially if you have questions about the circumstances surrounding how anyone close to you died. I mean, I can’t imagine going through that. But at the same time, boundaries are important. (laughs) And it’s a first date. I mean, you know how it is when you meet somebody at a club. That’s not a first date. You can barely hear the person. You might stand a lot closer to them than you normally would, but that is solely for the purpose of being able to at least hear two thirds of what they’re saying to you. So this is the first date you have with someone, and you’re not even through dinner, you’re still there just at the getting to know you phase and you slap that down on the table and then just open it up and dive right into that. It just boggles the mind. Absolutely boggles the mind. 

August: Wow. So looking back on it, or even right after, did you have any sort of take on his motivations, whether this was like well-intended and just maybe this person doesn’t realize it’s not appropriate, or did you feel like this person maybe is trying to, you know, be a little creepy?

EF: I didn’t get the creepy vibe. I think that he was still really struggling to come to terms with the person’s death. Now, I don’t know what I would’ve said to him at, you know, 12:30/1 o’clock in the morning at a dance club that would make him think I would be a good sounding board on this topic.

Nothing that I recall springs to mind that would give that impression. 

So that’s my best guess. He just kind of thought, Hey, this girl seems nice, she’s maybe an educated person, question mark. (laughs) I dunno.

August narration: 

It’s not like she was studying forensics, after all. She was going into a legal profession – not exactly “Criminal Minds.” 

EF and the guy didn’t talk much after that. And that was their only date.

EF: He called me a couple times and I just said, Hey, you know, I had a nice time essentially, but college boyfriend and I are looking at getting back together, so it’s best if we just call this quits. Back then it was a lot easier to do cause there was no social media or anything like that.

And he took it, I mean, he was fine with it. He was like, “Oh, okay, I get that.” You know, whatever. 

August narration: 

So yes, she fudged the truth a bit – a little white lie. 

EF: Cause I didn’t wanna say, Your bathroom is disgusting. And you showed me pictures from an autopsy report and that’s weird. I just, I didn’t want to make him feel bad. I felt like it was just better to cut that off and come up with a neutral reason.

August narration: 

It hadn’t seemed like he was malicious, after all. But for her personally, the autospy photos and the…uh, overwhelming bathroom experience felt like red flags. 

I don’t know about you, but parts of that story do feel like something you might read about in a novel. But awkwardness isn’t the focus of EF’s erotic tales — she does draw on her own life, though, in other ways. She basically makes way for the opposite.

August: I’d love to hear a little bit about your writing, and specifically when you’re writing these steamy scenes, when you’re writing about sex, when you’re writing about these really intensely romantic or awkward sex scenes, how much, if at all, does your life impact those stories and vice versa? Does your writing influence your real life experience? 

EF: When you’re writing a sex scene, for me at least, it helps to have had positive sexual experiences that you can somewhat draw on.

Obviously romance heroes are fictional for a reason. No actual human man is able to have sex seven times in one evening without some sort of chemical assistance. That’s just biologically impossible. But what I try to think about is less about the actual physical act of it and more about the positive way that my sexual partner has made me feel about things because it’s always easier to be in a vulnerable because it, you know, when you are having sex with somebody, that is a vulnerable position and it’s always a lot easier to be vulnerable with someone when you really trust that person.

And so that’s the main thing that I try to emphasize in my writing is that even when it’s a spicier scene, it wouldn’t have that spice to it if there wasn’t a connection between the two characters. So the spice level I would say is similar to my experience . I have what I would say a very satisfying sex life.

And it’s important to, from my perspective, in your relationship to be vocal about that. And if there is something that your partner is doing that you enjoy, well, they’re not gonna know that unless you tell ’em. It comes easier to me to be more vocal about things like, “Well, I don’t like this, but hey, if you did it this way, that’s the ticket.” 

And I think that a lot of ladies, they’re much more hesitant to be vocal about it. And to say, I like this, or this isn’t the best for me, but if we changed it in just this one little minor way, it would be perfect.

And a lot of women, at least a lot of women that I’ve talked to about that they don’t want to emasculate or demoralize or hurt their partner’s feelings. But the thing is, they want you to enjoy it just as much as they do. If they are a worthwhile partner, let me emphasize that.

But they want you to enjoy it, and I’m lucky enough to be with someone who is much more focused on the pleasure I get then the pleasure he gets. And I embrace it and I encourage it and I am very happy to be in that situation because he is very focused and very into making sure that he knows what I like and don’t like and what is going to get me there, so to speak. If he can make that happen more than one time, man, he is overjoyed. 

Through my writing I try to make sure that my heroines are vocal about things that they enjoy because in a way I’m encouraging people to open up to their partner to say, “I really like this. That is the spot. Yes, please. Thank you.” 

August narration: 

She said it’s not uncommon for the hero in a romance novel to always magically know exactly what to do to please and tantalize their partner.

EF: And in real life, that’s not always the case. Not every person is going to be this magical sex God who knows every point on a woman’s body to turn her to jelly. And so I try to make sure that my heroines are vocal, encouraging and not afraid to say what they want and what they like.

August: Ah, thank you for that. I think it’s so important, and I think we do learn from stories. Did you always feel comfortable speaking about what you wanted and your desires, or was that a learning curve as well? 

EF: That has been a learning curve for me, at least in the realm of sexuality. I think that for a long time, society has encouraged women not to speak up about what they want or what they enjoy. And the act of sex has been much more focused on male pleasure than female pleasure. And I think a lot of people still get uncomfortable talking about the female sexual experience. It’s still seen, I think, to a large degree as taboo.

You know, “good girls” don’t talk about that. And I think it’s important people realize that women make up 50% of heterosexual relationships, and that they should be getting just as much enjoyment out of those relationships as the man is.

And the only reason I phrase it that way is because that is my experience. I can’t speak to the homosexual experience. I can only speak to my own experience as a heterosexual female – it’s unfortunate to me that so many people shy away from the topic of female pleasure because it’s a big avenue and I think again, that’s why the romance genre is so successful.

It focuses on the pleasure people get through sex and it’s not a taboo topic and everyone should feel comfortable talking about it.

It is a genre that is important because it makes it okay for people to read and open up about what they find sexually appropriate or sexually interesting, sexually satisfying. It gives them an avenue to explore that. And I think it also, if it’s done the right way, and so many authors do this so beautifully, it emphasizes the importance of consent from your partner, or it emphasizes the importance of finding that person who is willing to treat you as well as you treat them or even better. And is willing to put you first, is willing to be a real partner in life. 

And I think that’s why the genre is so explosive right now is because it’s encouraging people to read about what you should really want for yourself when it comes to having someone in your life. And I don’t just mean, you know, the washboard abs or the or the chiseled cheekbones or any of that, what I really like is that a lot of authors now are focusing more on Sure, he’s a very hot guy. But what’s really more endearing about him is the way that he treats the heroine.

That’s what’s most important, and that’s how you get to a place where you can open up with someone about what you prefer sexually because you trust the person, because you know they’re not gonna belittle you or make fun of you or do anything other than say, “Well, if that’s what you enjoy, then let’s look into that. Let’s see what I can get you in that regard. Let’s see what I can do for you. I am willing to try for you because you’re important.” 

[acoustic, encouraging music]

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[acoustic, encouraging music]

August narration:

Trust, communication, respect… Those elements EF Dodd touched on seem like keys to creating and enjoying non-awkward sexual experiences and dates. 

And one or more of those attributes seemed to be missing from the awkward dates Kelly Reynolds—author and cohost of the podcast Boobies and Noobies —talked to me about. She said she has a history of such awkwardness, and it started basically from the get-go in her dating life.

August: So, I was thinking about dating journeys in general. And I’m curious, do you remember your first date? 

Kelly: Oh, boy, do I, because I didn’t know I was on the date when I had my first date.

I was a freshman in college. I went to school for theater and anybody who has done theater, whether it’s in high school, college, or just community theater, knows that that’s your family. That is your family when you’re doing a show. That being said, there also tends to be a lot of dating within the family as a show is going on. We call them show-mances. Usually they break up immediately after closing night. 

And I was a freshman. I didn’t know anybody really at this school. And so when one of the guys from a show I was doing asked me to go to dinner at one of the local burger shops, I thought nothing of it.

I thought this was a guy that I knew from theater and we were just going for a bite to eat after a rehearsal. And then when we ran into other people in the show, at the same restaurant, And I invited them to join us, I didn’t realize that was like a faux pax because I didn’t know we were on a date.

And so it wasn’t until later when he was dropping me off at my dorm that he said, “You know, that was actually kind of meant to be like a date between the two of us.” And I was like, Oh my God, I had my first date and I didn’t even realize it happened. 

August: Hey, you didn’t have any butterflies. You didn’t have to get all nervous.

Kelly: Right? I, I think I kind of set myself up for a lifetime of weird, awkward dating after that. Like, I should have dated him. I should have continued dating him. Like, it would’ve been great, but you know, in hindsight you can say that, but at 18 it was. Population one awkward city. Like, 

August narration: 

Population one, Awkward City. I have a feeling we’ve all been there. If you’ve ever spent time in the dating pool, you’ve probably experienced some embarrassing, confusing or otherwise bumpy moments. The kind that leave you a bit speechless or fumbling for what to do next. 

While working on this episode, I’ve been pondering awkward dates. I also polled my email list. And it seems like there are several themes of date awkwardness. 

There’s the one Kelly exemplified: You don’t even know you’re on a date. Then there’s bodily function awkwardness – fluids or sounds at what feel like inopportune times. There’s also the blurty, I can’t believe I or they said that scenario. And those times when only one person is having fun while the other is experiencing anything but. And dates where there is zero chemistry. Kelly’s experienced a version of that.

Kelly: Just like, why are we still here? Why don’t we just know and accept that and we go see a movie, Like it doesn’t have to be a date anymore. 

August narration: 

But somehow, saying that out loud can feel awkward, too. So instead, you fake a contact lens problem. Wait, you haven’t done that? Okay, me neither. Ahem. (What can I say, I was…young.) Kelly has experienced another version of that. 

Kelly: The classic. You know, you meet on a dating app, you have fantastic chemistry via text and messaging that meme game on point, and then you get together in person and within like the first five to 10 minutes, it just slumps. 

August narration: 

And that’s a hard line, for Kelly.

Kelly: I know some people will give a person like multiple dates to try to like kind of bring them outta their shell. I’m a one and done. I am a one and done. If we are on the first date and it is not clicking, like there’s no conversation. that’s it. Cuz I’m just very much, I’m a busy gal. Like I don’t want to waste my time on somebody who doesn’t wanna put in the effort to be there, to be there, to be there with me, emotionally, mentally, all of it.

 August narration: 

One of Kelly’s most awkward dates turned out to be one of those one and dones.

Kelly: This was while I was living in Chicago. I was a grad student. 

August narration: 

This was peak Tinder time, Kelly said, and she had just leaned about the app and signed up a couple of months before matching with this particular guy.

Kelly: I think we probably talked for about a week. You know, I learned a little bit about him. He was around the same age as I was and just out of school as well. He seemed like a really cool guy. And, maybe a little, I don’t know if inexperienced is the right word, but a little in his shell, a little introverted.

And I don’t know if anybody can tell, but I’m a full on extroverted fire sign, so I will say I do generally tend to attract introverted men, which I find hysterical, but, that’s okay. It was nothing new. 

 He invited me to a part of Chicago that has a large Polish population, and to a Polish restaurant and I’m thinking, Great. Like, this girl loves to eat, so I am here for this. 

August narration: 

These days, Kelly’s first dates are usually more like meeting for coffee. But this was really early in her dating life, maybe only her fifth date ever. And given that it was dinner, she dressed up.

Kelly: I put on a nice jumpsuit and some wedges. I put on makeup and like for me to put on makeup and like actually do my hair like that alone says everything.

It’s a Saturday night. That has a certain image of what you’re supposed to like, dress like and the kind of atmosphere, you know, you’re preparing for. 

 August narration: 

So once she was dolled up and ready, she headed to the restaurant.

Kelly: We met outside. Thank God it was not, winter time in Chicago. He was waiting out front. I was impressed at the time that he was there, like, because I always get everywhere a little bit early, and so I kind of expect to get there before my dates and I don’t mind doing that.

But, yeah, no, he was there, he was on time.

Kelly: He looked well put together. No red flags, honestly, likeHe looks really good. He’s here. he was nice. He was a little quiet. I kind of, the moment we met sort of had that feeling like, okay, this is gonna take some work to maybe get some conversation out of him. But we’re also, we’re just meeting, like, we haven’t even sat down yet, so it’s not like his quiet hello, is gonna like, send me for the hills.

 August narration: 

Besides, she knew going into the date that he was shy. The rest of the dinner had some…interesting elements. First, they were seated right away. 

Kelly: And you could tell that he’d been here before, like you could tell right away because like there were a couple servers walked by through him a wave.

The hostess, knew him by name and knew him by name beyond like his name is on the reservation list. Like she knew him. And so we were sat and we probably had a good five or six people come by our table, before we got our drinks.

 August narration: 

Was this guy famous? Or just a regular?

Kelly: I didn’t have this thought at the time, but I’ve lived in other cities and especially when living in LA I would find that this would happen a lot.

It would be more like they took you to the place where they wanted to kind of be like the big man on campus cuz like everybody knew them. I didn’t get that vibe at all. Like I didn’t get the vibe that oh, he’s doing this to like, impress me in any way or show off that everybody knows him. It didn’t feel like that, so that was good. 

I just kept thinking, I’m like, he must come here a lot. And, you know, as a grad student, this wasn’t a cheap place. Like this was not a cheap establishment. And I’m thinking this guy’s like 24, 25. I know he is fresh out of school.

And then I started thinking like, well, maybe this is where he brings dates. Like does he date so often that he brings them all to the same spot? All these things are just running through my mind. 

Cuz everything he’s saying is fine. Like everything in our conversation was fine. And it’s just everything from the outside coming in and how it’s affecting me. And he seems cool as a cucumber. Like, I mean, a little nervous, like first state jitters, but still relatively calm to the point that I’m thinking is this in my head, like, what’s going on?

I feel like I’m in a play and like I’m not in on the ending, but like everybody else is. Like everybody knows who the murderer is except for me, because I’m the one that’s gonna die next . 

August: Oh my gosh. And did it feel like it’s not an appropriate thing to ask? 

Kelly: Yeah, and I mean, you know, as extroverted as I am, I didn’t wanna create an awkward situation out of nothing. Cuz the more that the date went on and the fact that it was just so normal to him and so not normal to me, I kept thinking again that like, is this all in my head? Like, am I trying to create an issue here that doesn’t exist? 

And then, just when I’d kind of reach that point where I’m like, Okay, it must just be me. I’m just not clicking with him and I’m trying to find a reason why. I don’t know, a nice older woman approaches us and introduces herself as his mother.

And I was like, Wow, that’s so funny. You’re here on the same night and she very quickly explained like, Oh yeah, well this is our family restaurant. I think you’ve met some of our kids and you know, his cousins that are here working tonight. A lot of the staff members too were his, his family, the servers, the bartender.

This was a family run establishment. And on the one hand I’m like, Great, you know, this is like “My Big Fat Greek Wedding “at its finest. However, what were you thinking? Bringing me to meet your entire family. And I will say this is like a running thing that I have found from a lot of people with odd, bad, whatever you wanna describe them dating stories is the introduction to family members way too early, and I don’t think this was like a meet the parents kind of story. I don’t think his intentions were, I want to introduce you to the entire family, but then why bring me to your family’s restaurant? 

August: Because on one hand I’m thinking, Okay, so if I had a family who had a restaurant. I don’t have the budget, or I just really love to be able to bring a date to this place where I know everyone and I know the food, et cetera. I mean, I think there can be an endearing, sweet thing about that when you know about it. Right? 

Kelly: Oh, absolutely. I do think it was probably an odd choice for a first date in general. But I love the idea of a family business, of everybody working together. I did think it was interesting that it made a lot more sense once I found out that it was his family because he worked at the restaurant ,too.

He wasn’t working that night obviously, cuz we were there for dinner. But he worked at the restaurant, too, fresh out of school and everything. And, we did get our meals comped, so I was like, okay. Maybe this is why you’re doing this too, is like for the free food, but there was just such a tremendous lack of communication on his part to introduce this as where we were going and why. And I think that was kind of, even in naive 22 year old mind of Kelly was the red flag that I picked up on in all of this was like, not that you took me to your family’s restaurant, not that you took me there on the first date, but just the fact that you acted like this was completely normal, that I shouldn’t feel any sort of way about it, and that you never communicated these things with me. And for me, communication is like the end all, be all in a relationship. Like I think that’s what makes or breaks a relationship for sure is communication. 

I think in hindsight, if it was 30-year-old me, I would’ve made a joke out of it and tried to make something a little bit lighter of the situation. But yeah, 22 year old me, not so much. 

 August narration: 

She said the food, at least, was top notch. Her date’s mom was the chef. And after meeting her, the date wrapped up quickly and they went their separate ways — her, to the train. Him, back into the restaurant with his family.

A lack of transparency got in the way again for Kelly when she connected with someone and things seemed really sweet, at first anyway… 

August: This one sounds a little more brutal, I guess you could say. Where were you in your life when the donut person happened? 

Kelly: (exasperated sigs) The donut person… I was in LA! I had moved to LA after grad school. I lived there for about five years. This was probably on the latter half, like maybe like three or so years into living in LA.

 I was out of school. I was working like multiple jobs because you gotta hustle to make it . And, uh, I, had a roommate. We had a lovely little apartment together outside of the city, and as per usual back on the apps because that’s what happens. You, you get on them, you get disgusted, you delete them, and then two months later you download them again. So the never ending cycle.

Because I’m not somebody that likes to date people I work with. I know that a lot of people meet their partners that way and that’s totally fine for them. I have just found that every time I have dated somebody that I worked with or went to school with, it kind of just became an awkward environment.

I love staying friends with people that you’ve dated. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. People that I’ve met on apps, however, are usually, like if we break up or only go out a couple times, fine, no harm, no foul. So I think that’s kind of why I’ve tended to re-download and try them again is because I know that, okay, if this goes horribly wrong, generally the only person this is going to affect is me.

Like, I don’t see this imploding on my friends, my family, my work life. So I went back to the apps and I met this person. We actually had a fantastic first date. That was the thing is, this is why this one was so disappointing, was we had a great first date.

It was very quick. While I was living in LA , you’ve lived in LA so you probably understand this, but you get this feeling of like dating, being very transactional. And I’m sure this can be applied to other places. However, in LA I found this to be more true than any of the places that I’ve lived in that both work and dating, it’s very much a, well what am I getting out of this kind of relationship? 

 August narration: 

Kelly jogged my memory there… I’m currently only dating my long term partner — but I do recall one date with someone years ago that turned quite awkward…I realized that the romantic things my date was saying to me over dinner were lines for his upcoming audition. He was literally practicing on me, during our first official date and I had no idea – until I found his script on the floor. So I’ve experienced that using-people-thing in LA. I think it especially happens around the film industry where image and strategy and “need to get famous” vibes get prioritized. Thankfully there are exceptions. But donut guy wasn’t one of them.

Kelly: I kind of made it my thing to that if I was gonna go on dates with people that I didn’t know I was going to meet them there and we were going to have an hour at most for like a coffee date. 

 August narration: 

So that’s what she planned with donut guy. That nickname will make sense shortly.

Kelly: And we had a great first date, great chemistry, really nice guy. Chatty guy. In fact, I’d, I’d venture that he was maybe chattier than me. That was maybe kind of what attracted me to him was I was like, wow. This isn’t what I’m used to. A foreign feeling for sure. 

So the first date was great. What followed afterwards? Not the best and just honestly a little surprising. 

August narration: 

For the first date, he chose a small, Mom & Pop coffee shop – and Kelly was impressed. She recalls thinking, wow, he’s the one taking initiative to put this together, which didn’t match up to her other experiences with other men. 

As they chatted, she remembers liking the fact that he seemed to have some stability in his life – a good job, an apartment. And again, the conversation flowed so easily.

Kelly: And so after this wonderful date with this man who seemed to have his life together and knew how to have a conversation, we started texting again. And the whole purpose was to come up with our next date.

I really wanted to see him again. It seemed like he did, too. Our energies matched really well and I had mentioned during our date something about donuts. I don’t remember why it came up. I will say I am somewhat of like a donut lover. I have a lot of donut mugs, I have a donut pillow. I love donuts.

And so he had brought up, “Well, we should go get donuts.” 

August narration: 

She learned that the donut fervor was mutual. Not only that, but more than anything for their next date, he wanted it to involve donuts. 

Kelly: And I’m like thinking, Oh my God. I’m gonna marry him. it’s that stupid thing where after the first date you’re like, Oh my God, I’m putting our last names together.

 I can see, like the wedding. He loves donuts. Are you kidding? He wants to go get donuts together. What a fantastic idea. And so I’m thinking, Oh my God, this is the cutest damn thing ever. 

I said something like, Oh, well, like we get our donuts and then like, what do we do? Like, are we just gonna stay there and eat donuts? Do you wanna take the donuts to the beach? What do you wanna do? 

And the conversation quickly spirals from “Let’s get donuts” to, “You should eat a donut off of my ding dong.”

It’s not that I hadn’t sexted with somebody before. It’s not that I hadn’t gotten unsolicited dick pics before, because I definitely had. But it was so out of the blue that I didn’t know what to do with myself. 

 And I don’t generally hook up with people on like the first or second date. It’s just my own personal prerogative. It’s not my usual go-to. And so I kind of, you know, segued out of the conversation or so I thought by saying something like, “Oh, ha ha, that’s cute. But that’s more of like a fifth date kind of thing.” Wink, wink. Just something where it’s like, I’m not telling him, no, I’m not interested in this. I’m just not interested in this right now. And especially if we’re talking about going to get donuts, you think I wanna go like chow down on a maple bar and then like hook up? Like that is the last thing on my mind when I’m eating donuts. 

August: It’s not usually, it’s like the after sex food more often I think.

Kelly: Right! Especially cuz in LA God, there were so many places that were open 24 hours for donuts. Like the amount of times I would go to a place that was open and it would be like 2:00 AM, fantastic. If you’re talking about post-sex donuts, chef’s kiss, love it. 

But no, this segued into him saying something about licking the icing and it, it, it just sounded very like sensual donut eating. And I made a, what I thought was a joke in that, “Oh, sounds like you’ve kind of got a little donut kink there.”

And said, “is that a bad thing? “And I’m like, Oh, okay. So now I’m not sure if we’re joking or not, and you know, I’m not gonna kink shame anybody. But if it’s not your bag, it’s not your bag. 

And I said, “Well, no, not necessarily, but I’m just curious, like what is it that you’re envisioning with these donuts?”

And he very succinctly said , “I would love for us to go get donuts and for you to like eat one off my dick. ”

Now tell me what you’re thinking when you picture a donut on a dick. Because I have a very clear image of what kind of donut it is. I have an idea of like the shape of the donut, but I’m just curious, like if somebody told you, I want you to eat a donut off my dick, what would you picture? 

August: Well, it would have to be a donut with a large enough hole. I’m picturing like, it couldn’t be like a cake donut. It would have to be one of those glazed fluffy donuts. Right? 

Kelly: Like a Homer Simpson kind of donut. 

August: Yes, that’s what I would picture. 

Kelly: Okay. We’re on the same wavelength. I get the whole like ring toss kind of image. there’s a hole, you put it in the hole. The hole is usually fairly small, so I’m, I’m thinking that this is gotta be a wider one No, no. Um, he was envisioning a maple bar that he would slide his dick through from one end to the other that I would then eat off of him, like inching my way down the shaft. And I’m just thinking, okay, clearly not only do you have a donut kink, you have like a biting kink because if you think there’s gonna be a way that I’m able to slide a maple bar off your dong without gnawing on some flesh, I don’t know what you’re thinking.

 I clearly get into my head and try to like work out the practicalities of this in that, how would this go? I, I just, I just don’t see it. I just don’t see, especially with that donut, how this would happen. 

August: And it sounds like this person had thought about this a lot. 

Kelly: That was the thing. but I will say as a fat woman in particular, you do find a good amount of people, usually men who fetishize fat women, who very much want to kind of feed you or, you know, cover you in some kind of food because they equate food with fat bodies. Dripping, covered in this gluttony. 

And that was something I thought about was this feels like you’ve written this before, like this feels like a fantasy that like you’ve kind of had playing in your mind for years that you are wanting to act out and you’ve decided that I’m the person to like, act this out with you.

I think I did quip something back, relatively funny and harmless. Like, Oh, “I, I prefer my donuts on plates.” I think I said “I’m more of a chocolate kind of gal.” And he just didn’t respond like that was it.

Never heard from him again. He unmatched me on the app, and that was it! 

And I think there’s an element when you’re being told no by somebody who society has deemed less desirable, like a fat woman . I, I think we see this a lot with women of color as well. I think there’s just so many different people within society that unless you’re like the idea of what a perfect 10 is, you’re encouraged to be grateful that anybody shows you any kind of attention or affection.

And when you don’t show that you’re a bitch. You are not worth their time. And so that was kind of the first time I sort of had that interaction. Wasn’t the last, but it was the first. 

August: Wow. Yeah. It’s interesting cause I was thinking. . It’s not something that if you have certain types of privilege, you would’ve even had to think about.

Like in my experience, if I went through that, as like a small frame person, I would’ve thought, Okay, this person has a donut, dick being eaten, fetish and kink and that’s it. Sure. And, and even that alone, it’s like well start the conversation there. Go to a kink app, go somewhere where, here’s exactly what I’m looking for.

If you share this fetish, then you can be very explicit about exactly what you’re looking for when someone wants to be fetishized, right? Which is totally different from, you’re on a dating app, you go on a date , you’re building something. But I think that is a really important thing for folks to hear who haven’t been through something like that. To feel that fetishized, and then to know that it’s a pattern for you and involves something that you love. 

That made me sad because I really love donuts, too. I’m hoping, Have you been able to still enjoy your donuts? 

Kelly: Oh, there’s no way I am letting anybody come between me and donuts. Absolutely not. 

August: Ah, I’m so happy to hear that. Thank goodness the donuts won. You won. The donuts won. I’m glad you found out when you did. I’m sorry that you had to go through that. 

Kelly: Me too. And I think it’s a lot more common than people think. If anybody listening is a fat woman, I don’t think they’ll be surprised by this at all.

But it’s so common to have men message you on dating apps when you are a fat woman that wanna go straight to sex. And I’m not saying that that’s not a thing for people who aren’t fat either. I think there’s a lot of people who just wanna hook up and it’s like, that’s fine. But I do think there’s a lot more placed on fat women – again, you should feel lucky that I’m giving you this attention. You’re good enough for me to fuck. You’re not good enough for me to date or marry. I do see that a lot in dating apps, which is kind of why I’m at the point in my life where I’m also perfectly happy being alone.

Maybe it sounds selfish. I love me, I love hanging out with me. I have a great set of friends. I’m very close with my family. If I meet somebody organically in real life, that’s fine. I’m not opposed to that, but I’m not actively seeking out dates, especially on apps. That’s kind of where I’m at and it works for me. 

August narration: 

And that idea ties into Kelly’s top advice for you all, as far as dating goes, too.

Kelly: So it might sound silly, but I turn to a very reliable source when it comes to this, and that is Samantha Jones from Sex in the City who says, “I love you, but I love me more.” And I don’t think there’s anything selfish about that.

 You don’t owe anybody anything. The only person that you owe anything to is yourself. And if you are not treating yourself with respect, if you are not loving yourself and making sure you know what you want in a partner and also knowing like what you want to be like when you’re with a partner, then how can you possibly expect somebody else to give you that?

I don’t think you need to rely on somebody to complete you. It’s something that when I read romance novels and you get this idea of they fell in love and every problem was solved, that doesn’t work for me because I think when you’re in a relationship, you are growing as an individual as well as a couple, or more, whatever.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to you and knowing what you want and what you can do for yourself, just as much as for what you can do for another person.

August narration:

EF Dodd’s top dating advice reminded me of a famous Maya Angelou quote: “When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” 

EF: Believe in what people show you. Don’t think there’s something hidden behind that because most of the time what you see is what you get with people. And if when you meet a guy and he seems great, except for x. If X is something that you feel like is going to need to change, then you just need to move on from that guy because you shouldn’t date someone thinking that you’re gonna change that person.

You should date someone because you like that person as they are. Don’t think that this one trait or two traits or whatever are going to change. People are who they are and nine times outta 10, they’re the same person on first meeting that they are five years. From then , the basic personality, tenants aren’t gonna change. They’re gonna be the same. And so if someone shows you a red flag, acknowledge it for that red flag and make the decision to move on.

August narration:

To experience some sexy and romantic fun by way of fictitious stories, check out EF Dodd and Kelly Reynold’s books.

EF Dodd’s latest, Earning It, is a sequel to her first book, Risky Risky Restoration.

EF: Earning It circles around the heroine, Rae. And she is a woman who is very confident. What I liked about her and what made her a really fun character to write is that she is unapologetically open and embracing of her sexuality and just owns it. And just really encourages her friends to be equally secure in what they want. And to just own the fact that they are women and women who are in control of their lives and women who can take control of their sexuality and do with it what they wish.

August narration: 

Kelly Reynolds just released her debut novella, Meet Me in Los Feliz, last month.

Kelly: I think judging by the rest of this episode, when you read this book, you will 100% know that the main character is based on me.

You know, she is a plus size woman living in Los Angeles. She is an aspiring actress and also a nanny. She has colored hair. Her name is Nora. She meets this guy and he just does not fit into her plans at all. I call him my bisexual British short king. He runs a tea room. And she’s not looking for a relationship.

She is 100% focused on her career. There’s multiple lines about how it’s difficult to be, you know, a fat actress. It’s difficult for somebody who’s approaching their mi- thirties. And this is the time, the window that she has to make her career happen.

And she meets Bowie and is smitten because he’s the sweetest damn thing. He’s just, he’s so sweet and at the same time, naughty in the bedroom. They meet and what starts as sort of a maybe we’ll just fool around for the holidays kind of situation turns into, well, where do we go from here?

[acoustic chord riff]

August narration:

Check out both books and learn about the authors and their work at efdoddwrites.com and boobiesandnoobies.com.  Find direct links in the show notes.