Joe was in his mid-30s when he had sex for the first time, while working through his fears with a surrogate partner. That healing work opened the door to not only sexual pleasure and romance, but to surprising benefits throughout his life. Learn much more in the new Girl Boner Radio episode!
Stream it on Apple Podcasts/iTunes, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Spotify or below. Or read the transcript below.
“Embracing Sex at 35: Joe’s Story”
a Girl Boner podcast transcript:
Joe: I was so worried about that. I was so scared about that. Like, I’ve never had sex. They’re gonna run away. And I remember a friend of mine said, well, I think the bigger thing that they’d be worried about is that you’ve never been in a romantic relationship. And I’m like, well, oh, thanks for that. Let me chew on that for two years.
August/narration:
If that voice sounded familiar, it might be because Joe appeared in another episode recently, called 8 Incredible Orgasm Stories. We met at the Donuts and Orgasm Stories event I co-hosted a few months ago. Today you’ll hear much more about his journey with surrogate partner therapy, having sex for the first time in his 30s.
As a heads up, this episode contains mentions of an eating disorder. Please take care while listening.
[encouraging, acoustic music]
When Joe looks back on his childhood, he sees that he was a curious extrovert who actually became quite shy.
Joe: I’ve learned as an adult in my explorations and healing that I have a lot of openness and I’m a Leo, so there’s a lot of, you know, wanting to perform, but also this desire to be of service.
And I think as a kid that got subsumed by the experiences. So I was a lot more shy. There’s a certain amount of shyness to me, but I thought I was an introvert when I was a kid. It turns out I was an extrovert that hadn’t been given space to grow.
I was fascinated about the world. I loved animals. I really enjoyed spending time with the girls more. I didn’t like hanging around the guys. So most of the time I liked to spend with the girls doing what they were doing. Cause it was a lot quieter and calmer and there was a lot more talking. And I like to talk. So it was the energy of girls at that time that matched my energy: sensitive, gentle, quieter kind of vibe.
August: And what is a memory that stands out around sex or sexuality?
Joe: I would say I grew up in a sex toxic household because there were a lot of, very hateful representations of things. So like male sexuality was demonized. I learned to hate myself.
So there’s just a lot of fear and hatred around male sexuality from my mother. My father never stepped in, never helped, never talked to me about anything about puberty ever, not even once. My mom felt this pressure to do it, and she didn’t have all of the experience to do that. So I think she was really put in a tough position.
August/narration:
One memory, in particular, sticks out for Joe. At the time, he was a teenager.
Joe: So I was in my room. My mom knocked, but never asked to enter. She walked into my room.With this fearful look on her face and dropped a brown paper bag on the bed, turned around, looked at me fearfully, and walked out. And I opened the brown paper bag and it was full of condoms. And that was an attempt by her to try to keep me safe.
And then they bought me a book, What’s Happening to My Body Book for Boys. And that was helpful.
August: Yeah. Do you remember what went through your mind when you got this bag of condoms Randomly?
Joe: I just felt confused and a little embarrassed because she was embarrassed as if there was something to be embarrassed about.
She also became very fixated on getting me a Playboy magazine. She wanted me to get a Playboy to look at.
And we drove around to a bunch of stores trying to find one I remember. And she was just really focused on this. And then she handed it to me and she said, “Here you go. But remember, these aren’t real women. These are like fantasy or Photoshop or whatever. And then walked away.
[laughs] And so it was like mixed messages to the extreme.
And male anatomy, penises were talked about from an assault perspective. From a rape perspective.
And I remember I was sitting in the living room and my dad turned to me and he said, “you know, for a lot of women seeing an erect penis reminds them of rape.”
I don’t remember what we were talking about, why that came up. these things would just come up randomly. So there was just a lot of weird energy around that.
August/narration:
Joe isn’t sure exactly what those mixed messages were about, but he suspects his parents had hangups about sex they hadn’t dealt with.
Joe: On the intellectual level, sex was a healthy thing that people do. But on an emotional level, there was a lot of, a lot of unhealed trauma.
August/narration:
Trauma that his parents unwittingly passed on to him.
Joe’s mom dealt with other types of unhealed trauma, too.
Joe: My mother was an addict. I mean, she raged a lot when I was a kid. There’s a history of sexual violence on my mom’s side of the family, and I think she just took it out on me and my dad. She didn’t hate us, but she hated men and we were men, so, you can really wound people if you don’t take care of your stuff.
And I haven’t forgiven her for that yet. I’d like to, but I’m just not ready.
August/narration:
As Joe pointed out, the effects of unhealed trauma can sprinkle through so many parts of our lives, including our views about sexuality.
August: So how did you feel or think about sex then, given all that?
Joe: Like anyone else I had sexual desire and I wanted to have sex, but I had this kind of created phobia against it.
And I’ve always been a more anxious person that’s partly from childhood and I think I’m just genetically, I’m just more anxious and so I internalize things. I take them in. So I think I took that in as – I did not realize this until much later; in fact, probably two years ago at 35 – the fear stems from if I become sexual with a woman, I’m gonna assault her. Then I’m gonna turn into a real violent monster and hurt someone.
So I was constantly afraid to be around women. Not because I was afraid of them, like I originally thought because of my mother, but because I was afraid I was gonna hurt them.
August/narration:
That impacted his day to day life, too. Any time he was in an elevator with a woman, just the two of them, for example, he’d stand as close as he could to the door so she could see him the whole time. As a woman I could see appreciating that. But when those behaviors and beliefs go to an extreme?
Joe:
It’s good to think about those things, and be considerate about them, but when you’re fixated on it as some sort of, I have to keep other people safe for me because I’m a monster, it’s not like a very healthy way to go through life.
August/narration:
While Joe was grappling with confusing things he’d learned about sex, and his growing fears around sexuality, another battle raged inside him — a kind so many of us can relate to: disordered eating and poor body image.
On some level he believed:
If I put a lot of weight on, if I’m fat, then I’m not attractive and people won’t come near me. It’s my armor that keeps me safe from intimacy. I knew I wanted intimacy and now desperately wanting it because of that lack of it for so long, not having it in my childhood, there was no emotional intimacy.
If you have feelings, go in the other room and deal with it yourself. But I didn’t have the tools to deal with it. So I think that the weight helped keep me safe. And that’s why when I went into high school, I wanted a very unhealthy diet, lost a lot of weight very quickly, and then I felt powerful. I felt attractive for the first time.
August/narration:
That’s when Joe got into a relationship…
Joe: Kind of. [laughs] It was a high school relationship, although by most people’s standards, I guess I’d call it a middle school or junior high relationship, emotionally that’s where we both were.
Lasted about four months. We never dated. We just decided to be in a relationship and we saw each other at school. I didn’t have a car.
August/narration:
And it led to what Joe considers the first crystallization moment in his experience with sexual and romantic anorexia.
Joe: Which is compulsively avoiding sexual and romantic activity.
She called me up, my high school girlfriend and offered sex, and all I had to do was walk two miles. Now a 16 year old boy who’s going through puberty and his girlfriend says, “come over and let’s have sex.” You would think that for most people that would be, oh, well walk the two miles. Cause I didn’t have a bike or didn’t call. I just walked the two miles. Instead, I changed the subject, said goodbye and hung up.
August/narration:
Joe’s sexual anorexia carried on through his 20s and into his mid-30s. And it wasn’t that he didn’t desire sex.
Joe: Most people who experience sexual anorexia have an anemic relationship to sex. So they do have sex, but it’s less often than what would be a normal average. Everybody’s different, but. or There’s a desire to have sex, but it’s like they can’t get the power to the back wheels.
Joe: Like there’s some block there. . It’s not that we don’t wanna have sex, we want to have sex. It’s that we feel powerless to remove those blocks that are preventing us from taking the action.
August/narration:
Joe also talks about love addiction as part of his journey — which experts have various takes on, as far as the terminology. You can learn more about those different takes in the episodes linked in the show notes. Joe told me his sexual anorexia “triggers into his love addiction,” his fear of intimacy and some compulsive behaviors around sex.
Joe:
For most people it’s going two or more years without a relationship, without some normal intervening cause, a death or some health issue or something that would be a reason not to date. So I was more severe. I don’t know anyone that had my 20 years of nothing.
So people have binges. It’s a binge cycle. So they deprive for a long time and then they binge. So my binges maybe five times in those 20 years, I would masturbate in public. Now I didn’t want anyone to see me and I didn’t look at anyone.
I just would pull the seats down, cover the windows in my car, whatever, and do it. And it felt like a command that I had to do and I was forcing my body to do it even though my body didn’t want to.
August/narration:
Later on, after seeking help, Joe realized what that was all about.
Joe: My therapist said, you know, “I think you were trying to be sexual with people but didn’t know how. So you just drive nearby people and do that.”
August/narration:
And it didn’t just happen pulled over in his car.
Joe: Bathroom stall one time. One time while I was driving on the freeway. I mean, it was just like while I was driving. crazy to think about that now. Things so much has changed since then.
My recovery and my eating disorder pushed some of the more extreme behaviors away, but then they came back.
August/narration:
His eating disorder recovery helped some, but not all aspects of his sexual compulsions and fears.
August: So they pushed away also the sexual compulsions when you were healing from the eating disorder. Is that what you meant?
Joe: Just the acting out in public. I still was compulsively and I could compulsively masturbate in private as well. It was not for joy or for love. It was like to punish myself or to disconnect from my body instead of what most people masturbate to love themselves and connect to their body. I was just kind of lost, very sad, lonely, so much loneliness.
And I felt unlovable. And it was like it was in a spiritual coma, like this kind of deadness inside. I couldn’t feel anymore.
August/narration:
Eventually, Joe said, recovery from all of that gave him life. Something I personally relate to for different reasons.
August: I have to ask, as someone who has been through anorexia myself, I saw so many parallels as you were speaking, and I’m curious, I know one myth about anorexia is that you don’t desire food.
And I was hungry all the time, even in my dreams, I was hungry, dreaming about food and wanted food so much until it got really severe and then there was like a complete shutdown physically, emotionally, spiritually, sexually, in every way. I feel like I was dying. Um, do you relate to that? Is that somewhat what it was like?
Joe: It’s a hundred percent true. You know, eating disorders have, I mean, there’s, there’s the, there’s the medical component going to the sober living facility or what have you, and there’s eating disorder clinics. Some are live ins, clinics. So that is a whole different thing.
But from my point of view of going through it from a 12 step program that I follow, so I joined a program called Overeaters Anonymous for my food issues. And then I joined a program called Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous for my sex and love, though I wasn’t a sex addict, I was a sexual anorexic.
and so I think if we call it an addiction, anorexia is an addiction compulsively avoiding that all addictions are the same. They’re progressive. They get worse and worse if you don’t treat them, you will. And this is just me being honest. If you do not treat addiction, you will go insane or die. Those are your two choices.
August/narration:
Eventually, Joe found tremendous healing around his sexual fears by working with a surrogate partner. But first, he chipped away at shame in that 12 step program.
Joe: One of the things, 12 Steps, all we always say is get, you know, we recommend outside help. Sometimes you need someone a professional, sometimes you need someone who’s been there before you. And so I first needed people who were there before me cause I needed to remove the shame.
I was just so ashamed to exist. Like I wanted to apologize for existing. I remember I shared about the masturbating and public thing. I just had to get it out in a room. And the way it works in a share, you can talk for up to three minutes. No one can interrupt you, ask you questions, no one can respond. You just get to talk and let the room hear you.
August/narration:
After a meeting is over, he said, people can ask to comment on your share. Which is what happened after Joe talked before a group about his belief that women hated him — something that continued to fuel his sexual anorexia.
Joe:
So I shared that thing and this woman walked up to me and I froze. Oh, she’s gonna tell me I’m disgusting. I was just convinced that that would happen. And I just stood there. I froze. I couldn’t move.
And she walked up to me and she said, “I really related to your share.” And you know, [sniffles] that was the beginning of that hope that I’m not some horrible thing.
And it was also really mind blowing to think that women were sex addicts.Women had compulsively masturbated. I know those people now. I talked to them. Some of them had to go to the hospital because they masturbated so much, they caused physical damage that had to be taken care of by a doctor. [half laugh] And I laugh not because I’m making fun of them, but because I’ve been there. Not necessarily that per say, but the mental obsession is always the same, no matter what the physical looks like.
And all 12 steps, really when you boil ’em down, they have one goal. You remember to love yourself. You remember how. That becomes your core operating principle.
You remove those negative core beliefs and replace ’em with the positive. You learn to love and connect to your higher power.
August/narration:
Whether that’s God, the universe, life force…
Joe: And then, you love others. And in Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, it’s platonic intimacy. In my case at the time, believing I was heterosexual, platonic intimacy with other men, which is very hard for me. I didn’t trust men.
My mother’s hatred of men also made me distrustful of other men. Then platonic intimacy with women. And then it was time to start putting myself out there and dating.
And the beauty of the recovery is by the time I got to that point where I was sober dating, there’s a dating plan we follow to have structure so we don’t jump in too fast. Or in my case also like, don’t delay and doddle. I loved myself and I had a full abundant life.
And I remember I started dating. I went on the apps and I’m like, well, I don’t know, do women find me attractive? I know I find me attractive and that’s all I need. Cuz that’s what program taught me. It’s not about the relationship, it was about a deeper level of healing.
And then I was like, well maybe I’ll go on the apps for a few months, and then I’ll get a date. And I got a date in four days. And it was like, okay.
August/narration:
Also? Women were describing him as handsome.
Joe: And I’m like, okay, good. There are people who see me the way I see myself. And that’s, that’s good.
August/narration:
He also had moments of hating the whole dating thing….
Joe: because dating can suck a lot. [laughs]
August: That’s so real. Oh, just even in your face as you were sharing, I could see the pain and then the joy and the freedom.
Joe: You have to sit through the pain in order to feel the joy and to feel the peace. Even more so, the more important, the peace you have to sit through it, no matter how long it lasts. There’s a period we call withdrawal. I was crying, listening to romantic songs while putting books away in my librarian and, you know, all kinds of stuff. And I grew a big beard. I call it my withdrawal beard, my don’t come near me beard. It’s what I needed.
And I also went through a period of no contact with women, no contact with women at all, except like the barista at the coffee shop, people at work, family especially. But anyone I’m interested in in any way and all friends. It ended up being four months and it was really transformative.
I came out of that seeing women in a different way and connecting to them on a deeper level. Uh, because I was, I was using them in a way to try to get something I needed. And I didn’t have to do that anymore because it never fulfilled, because it wasn’t the love I needed. Self-love was what I needed.
August/narration:
Self-love was what he needed. And the healing he cultivated took shape in lots of ways.
August: Do you remember a particular experience that you went, oh, this is like showing my healing, I’m in a totally different place now.
Joe: So many little moments. I think it’s the concept of neutrality. When I started dating and dating was more exciting cuz I’d never done it before.
It took about a year to find neutrality. So I was neither, this’ll fix me and I’ll, I’ll get all these, these fantasy things I need, nor I hate this. This is stupid. I’ve gotta give up. It’s, I’m never gonna find anyone. I hate it.
But in the middle of just like get up, eat breakfast, take a shower, get dressed, go to work, have a date, go home. And whenever that neutrality started to get lost, and knowing when those feelings to go do those behaviors that are unhealthy for me, come back or I was obsessing about a person or whatever. Okay. What is the unmet need that I need to give myself here?
So looking at those as signposts of, you need nourishment somewhere that you’re not getting it and it’s gotta come from you. It can’t come from another person. Happiness is, first and foremost for me, a choice. And then it’s an action.
August/narration:
When Joe entered his recovery program at age 33, he had not only never dated, but never had sex – other than self-pleasure. A year later, at 34, he started dating — the type he calls “sober dating.” And quickly, he realized he needed more support around his sexual fears.
Joe: The physical intimacy, the sexual intimacy fears that were so overwhelming did not shift from sober dating. Like, I needed something more, to move past that.
August: So when you’d be on, say, a date how did you avoid sex?
Did you tell people, I don’t have sex. I haven’t had sex yet, or were there just like, you know, sabotage things you did without even realizing it?
Joe: [laughs] Oh, I, there were times I wanted to burn things down, and there were, there were times when I’m like, did I just insult this person’s workplace? I’d have moments where I’m like, why did I say that? I was so worried about that. I was so scared about that. Like, I’ve never had sex. They’re gonna run away.
And I remember a friend of mine said, well, I think the bigger thing that they’d be worried about is that you’ve never been in a romantic relationship. And I’m like, well, oh, thanks for that. Let me chew on that for two years.
And they weren’t in programs, so…I shouldn’t have been going to them for that experience. I’ve learned to go to the right people, the right experience.
I talked to my sponsor, he said, just be honest with them. If they’re not the person and they go away from that information, then that’s what’s meant to be.
And hearing that now, and being in that, being in a relationship that makes perfect sense. But it’s hard to see that when you’ve never had one.
August/narration:
So to better navigate all of his sexual fears, Joe’s sponsor recommended surrogate partner therapy. At the time, Joe was taking a break from dating and caring for his parents, both of whom had cancer.
Joe: Some people also know it as sex surrogacy. I like surrogate partner because it is a partnership. It’s not a romantic partnership, but it is a partnership.
My sponsor said, “why don’t you try surrogate partner therapy?”
So where do I go from there? We live in a sex negative culture And people use those terms for sex work. I have nothing against sex work. I think it should be legal and unionized, but I can’t, I, I’ve just, my way I’m programmed I can’t do things transactionally. It just doesn’t feel right to me. So, I just posted a meeting, does anyone know where I can get this?
And this friend of mine, she just sent me this place and it was a sex therapy place. And they work with surrogates. And I met up, and usually what they say is you spend a few months, they evaluate and then they decide the therapist has to approve it.
August/narration:
It didn’t take long for a sex therapist, during that evaluation process, to approve Joe for surrogate partner therapy.
Joe: Halfway through the first session, he said, yeah, that’s what we’re doing for you. Like, he already knew, like 20 years and, you know, okay, we need to get past this.
August/narration:
The therapist contacted an organization to help get Joe situated with a sex surrogate partner. Joe found a good fit, and he didn’t mind traveling a bit to get to them. They connected remotely first.
Joe: We met on Zoom. And I remember the first thing I noticed about them is I was so attracted to them right off the bat that I was intimidated. And of course that voice in my head is like, well, if you’re that attracted to them, there’s no way they’re interested in you.
And they laid down the boundaries, no contact outside the session. So we can’t meet, we can’t meet up for his friends. Can’t do anything outside the sessions. no contact except appoint, like even texting emails. It has to all be about appointment scheduling only. And when all our clinical goals are reached, we break contact permanently. Those are the boundaries.
I said, “okay.” And I wanted to play it. Cool. So she said, “yeah, if you wanna talk it over,” I’m like, “sure, I will. We’ll talk it over.” And she logged off and I went, yes, now please! as soon as she logged off [laughs], because I wanted to play it a little cool the first time.
August/narration:
During their first in-person meeting, they just talked.
Joe: And we really got along well.
August/narration:
At the next session, they did a series of touch exercises.
Joe: And the first one, it was like being born or something. It was like coming, not coming back to life, but coming to life for the first time. And it was just a hand caress. I went first at that time I was in my head about everything.
So it was like I was choreographing the touch in my head. Like my left brain was doing all the work I didn’t have that connection. and even in my head it’s so funny, like, oh, I didn’t do that. Right. And you know, like just that thinking.
Then she caressed my hand and it literally, and I mean this in the most literal way. I felt like I was being filled up for the first time. That sensual touch I never received before in my life, which is really, it makes me cry sometimes to think about being 35 and experiencing that for the first time.
There was a huge sexual arousal that came from that, even though it was sensate. And when I went to the bathroom, I realized that I had created a lot of pre-ejaculate, and I was like, oh, okay. I started to learn my body when I get turned on, it’s more about that than the erection for whatever reason that comes later. And it’s different every time cuz people are different.
August/narration:
Gradually, after the caressing and being caressed, they moved onto other exercises.
Joe: We were doing face caressing, head in each other’s laps. And when she had her head in my lap and I was touching her face and she said she didn’t fall asleep, so maybe she was almost there.
August/narration:
Joe remembers taking a moment to look around, noticing that they were alone together in the office…
Joe: I said, the next session, cause I know I just needed some time to process, so I went to the next session, I said, you were really relaxed, you were really comfortable. And she said, yeah, I feel safe with you.
No one had ever said that to me before. And I started to learn that, far from being unsafe, that I was very safe. And I always give off a safe energy. And people just, it’s like they come up to me and they want to talk to me or they wanna get to know me or this, it’s wonderful. But then I have to moderate my energy and not take in too much. So it’s a balance.
August/narration:
The exercises were moving toward the erotic phase, where overtly sexual things would happen. Just before that phase began, Joe was led through a mirror exercise.
Joe:
…taking off clothes in front of a mirror. If you had told me I could chew off my own arm and not have to do that exercise, I’d have to think about it for a minute.
She would never tell me what we were gonna do at the next session unless it was really low. Cuz she knows I’m a thinker and I’d spend the whole week obsessing about it. How am I gonna do this?
I would usually get to the session a half hour early, so I would walk in the, I flew to park and I’d walk around and I’d do meditation and breathing exercises to try to calm down.
And usually my heart would still be racing. And it was just like, okay, well once we get into the exercise, I’ll calm down. And that is true. But she said, do you wanna do the, um, do you wanna do the mirror exercise today? And I said, “sure.” But in the head I’m like, Fuck, I don’t wanna do this!
Because even though logically it makes no sense whatsoever, I was convinced emotionally that as soon as I took off my clothes, she would just be like, “please leave my office.” It doesn’t make any sense. It’s not rational, but it doesn’t have to be rational to feel true.
And so I’m like, okay, if I’m gonna do this right, I have to get into my underwear. I’m not ready to be naked yet, but I want to show as much skin as I can. I think that’s the best way to do this. And I was psyching myself up. And the main thing about that exercise, she said, “whatever level of undress you’re at I’m at, too.”
So I take off my clothes and she takes off her clothes and she’s topless. And I had a moment of like, I can’t be here. This can’t happen. And then I calmed myself down and we talked through it. And she took her shirt off. So she’s obviously comfortable, but I had to ask, can I look?
And she said, sure. And I did. And then it was just two people standing in front of the mirror again.
It felt very raw. And she said, well, I don’t even wear a bra. And I was like, oh, all right. Well that’s, that’s interesting.
It was just a nice moment of just, of realizing that I was not gonna be rejected because of my body. And that day my body dysmorphia pretty much went away. I started going to the beach, [ocean/beach sounds] I started going to nudist events regularly. I mean, it just went away. It still comes back occasionally and, but it’s not, it just isn’t a part of my life anymore, for the most part. [birds softly chirping]
August/narration:
Joe said that every session brought some kind of breakthrough. Which was good, considering that next up? Was full nudity.
[soft, fun music: “Wings of Desire”]
Joe:
The first time we got naked together, we just cuddled – you know, a very slow workup. We got down to our underwear where we were last week, which is comfortable because we’d done that already.
I said my heart’s racing. I can’t. And she said, she held me. She said, why don’t we just lay in the bed and maybe if you wanna take underwear off, we can. And we had gotten to that point where we were touching and kissing, So that always calmed me down. Kissing always calms me down.
I said, okay, I’m ready. And I was still flustered, so I took my underwear off and I handed them to her for some reason. She’s trying to find a place to put them. And then she takes her underwear off and it’s like, there’s that vulva I’ve heard about. It’s right there.
You know, it didn’t matter. I’d seen a million of them on, you know, porn. It’s not the same thing. And I was like, oh wow, okay. That’s what it looks like. That’s so cool.
She was shaved so we could see more of the structure and it was like, Hmm. And then we just cuddled and then we slowly worked up and she said the erotic phase and then a three week break cuz we’re both going on vacation. Damn it. Have to wait three weeks.
August/narration:
At the next session, after that anticipation-filled break, Joe received sexual touch for the first time.
Joe:
And it just felt wonderful. I was almost gonna orgasm because it was so intense the first time and we’re both naked and I told her that like, “oh, I’m close.” And she’s like, “Oh, okay.” So we learned how to deal with that sensitivity.
August/narration:
She’d have Joe rate his arousal from 1-10.
Joe: She would stimulate me for a little while and she’d go “arousal scale,” and I’d say “seven.” She’d go, “okay.” She’d back for a little bit and then later on in the sessions, arousal scale four.
August/narration:
The goal was to build up Joe’s tolerance so he could enjoy the slower arousal he wished for.
Joe: The first thing was we did full body touching. It was just, it was just very erotic, like full body rubbing and a light touch of the genitals.
And then we went into the first sexual touch that I mentioned and then I said, can I touch you? And she said, sure, go explore. So I had my first fingering experience.
August/narration:
Joe said he connected more to giving than receiving, and still does.
Joe:
I’m working on that. I mean, I do love to receive and I wanna learn to. I deserve this. I get to just be here and let them do their thing. This is okay. I remember just watching, first I did a little clitorial simulation with the circles, and then I did the fingering and just watching her face and just like the pleasure and those wonderful pre orgasmic little jolts, those little shivers.
August/narration:
During the second erotic session, they did the same thing.
Joe: And in the moment while I was doing that, she taught me a technique that I was doing, and she turned to me and she said, you’re really good at that. And that was just like, I’m good at something sexual, I’m good at it. And I was like a hundred feet tall.
She doesn’t blow smoke. My brain can’t go to that To match that old worldview.
August/narration:
No more telling himself he wasn’t worthy or good enough for sex. After the fingering exercises, they moved on to oral sex.
Joe:
Oral was another level.
So we did the routine. I’d wait in the waiting room, she’d open the door, we’d hug, we’d make out for a while, which is a nice way to start. And it always calmed me down. And it was, it was really nice. And then sit on the couch. How was your day, little chit chat.
Then go to the bed, fold out the bed, take off clothes.
So we’re doing foreplay and then she turns to me and she says, “how about a blowjob?” As if this big moment in my life, finally it’s like, “would you like a cup of coffee?” It was so casual in that moment.
August/narration:
And the experience itself was far more intense than even the darkest roast coffee. [coffee pouring]
Joe: First of all, her technique was flawless. It was amazing. But emotionally, spiritually, there’s a lot of turmoil. Like on one side there’s the pleasure and the, oh my God, I’m, I’m having this moment. That third eyeing and, and joy and a sense of healing happening. And then depression, anger, fear, sadness, all these feelings started coming up.
And it was like this maelstrom. And my brain said, this is too much. We’re gonna disassociate now. And I fought, like staying on a, on a, on a bucking bowl. Just fighting, fighting to stay present. I get a little fuzzy. I’d come back in, a little fuzzy come back in.
August/narration:
Remember that 1-10 arousal scale they were using?
Joe: Nine is orgasm is eminent 10 as it’s happening now. So I was able to really get present the last moment to just squeak out at “nine!” [laughs]
And because we used protection, she was able to continue oral while the orgasm was happening to stretch it out.
And she knew just when that pleasure period to that neutral period to when it’s uncomfortable, like right in the neutral period, she stopped amazing. I wanted to be lying there in joy and happiness. That’s what I wanted. In reality, I had a lot of sadness and then I got mad at myself for being sad.
August/narration:
Later on, Joe called his sponsor.
Joe: She said, how was that? And I wanted to tell her how amazing it was, but we also have to tell the truth in the session. So I said, I just feel sad and I don’t know why. She said, well maybe that’s cuz of all the years that you could have been doing this.
I’m like, “This is too much. If this is what sex is, like I can’t do this again. I can’t do this.” She said, “I think you value recovery, so you’ll go back.”
The second time I got a blowjob. It was peaceful, blissful, just floating down a river. [acoustic music: “By the Riverside”]
August/narration:
After practicing oral a few times, it was time for intercourse.
Joe:
And that was a big hurdle. There’s so much pressure around intercourse, right? Society’s like, you gotta have intercourse. That’s what sex is.
So we’re having, we’re doing oral, and she said, can I try something different? I said, sure. And she said, can I straddle you? You would think I know what that meant. I had no idea what she meant.
And then she literally grabbed my penis and pointed at it and pointed at her crotch. [laughs] And I’m like, “oh, yes, please.” Seconds of just really wonderful play. And then something, I don’t feel anything.
And what I learned is I had this fear of engulfment. but also, penetrating for me is also very intimate. You’re putting another part of your body inside someone else.
And she’s like, and is it fear of the vagina? Is it, what is it? Fear of engulfment. I think it’s engulfment. So I wanna recommend this exercise to people who have that, something called quiet penetration. So you get with your partner, you penetrate, whether you’re hard or soft, for our penis -bodied people.
And then you just hang out. Just hang out in it, And, and then we did that twice. And then I woke up that morning feeling different. Something had shifted. I felt this confidence and I walked into that session. We always did woman on top. I think that felt less overwhelming for me. Missionary, face to face, a little intimidating. I wasn’t taking the lead, I wasn’t being the dominant one.
And I said I’m still very comfortable being the submissive one. she said, “do you wanna move now?” I said, “yes.” So she got on top of me and she went to town on me. I was to say like, I felt like my penis was a ping pong ball in a dryer.
I was like, the stimulation was incredible. Cuz she’s like, if I can just get him to have an orgasm before, like, we’ll get past it. It’s mental and emotional.
August/narration:
Around that time, Joe explored these experiences in his audio journal.
Joe: And I had periods where I was, so I was just weeping, like, I’ve never get past this. Oh my God. I listen to those now and I just kind of laugh and smile.
I had my first orgasm inside of another person and that day, expecting the Hallmark movie moment, the crying, you know, the big thing just laying down with a grin on my face, just a quiet happiness. It’s like I did it! And that was the last new thing we did. And then for three glorious months, we just practiced all of that stuff.
August/narration:
Then Joe realized they hadn’t practiced going down on HER.
Joe: I said, wait a minute, we haven’t practiced oral the other way. It’s very important. I wanna learn that. I want to try it on somebody who you know is safe. And I can, I can experiment.
And we get up to the moment we’re using a dental dam, we always use barriers, no exceptions for everything. So I’m about to do it and I go, you know, I’ve fantasized about doing this for so long. What if I don’t like it? What if it’s like, what if I hate it? Cuz that would suck.
August/narration:
As it turned out?
Joe: I loved it. It was just the most wonderful thing.
She was like, I like you spot and clitorial stimulation simultaneously. Okay. So we’re doing that and I’m feeling her contracting on my finger and it’s just a wonderful experience.
August/narration:
When it was time for Joe to wrap up, she let him know.
Joe: She would just be like, [sigh], okay, well that’s good. You know, she would just break because I’m having the focus, right? But I still am like I had no idea she had an orgasm or not. And I had to ask and I said, did you come? She said, oh no. I said, oh, okay. She said, I need at least 20 minutes of stimulation.
August/narration:
They just didn’t have time for that. Each session lasted an hour, and they had a lot of ground to cover as far as Joe’s healing. And that work very much paid off.
Joe: We worked through my issues. I got very comfortable with all of these things. And then she said, okay, well you’ve reached all your clinical goals. And I remember she was kneeling, uh, next to me naked cause we just had sex. I remember. And she said, it’s time for the closure sessions.
And it didn’t really register. And I think that’s because I didn’t wanna be obsessed with this idea of having sex even though that is what I needed, the act of sex to get past it, I had to take each session as it came.
So I really prayed about, just take each session as it comes. So I wasn’t consciously thinking about the progress, where we’ve come from. I couldn’t be in that place. I needed to be present.
August/narration:
As it turned out, they would have two closure sessions.
Joe: And on the second, “this is the last one?” She said, “Yes, this is last.” “Oh. Okay. All right.” She said, “do you want resources first or sex?” “Let’s do the talking part and then let’s just get into it.” So we practiced three positions. Person superior, let’s say for gender neutral, missionary and doggy style.
August/narration:
Joe also asked to work on longer lasting arousal one more time.
Joe:
And so I had an orgasm. We were lying there and we could have cuddled for a little bit longer, but I said, I want to give oral to you. She’s like, “Sure!” [laughs]
So I did.
and it was funny. She was like the headless woman because her head was so far back, I couldn’t see it. So she’s like stomach, breasts, and neck and no head.
August/narration:
After he was done, they got dressed.
Joe: It took me a while to get my clothes on because I, I just was watching her dress and I wanted to see it last time, and I could sense her discomfort because this is probably the part of, I imagine doing this job that is the worst part.
I had written her an email that I sent right before the session so that I could just kind of give her in words, something edited. And I think it might be a little over the top. I don’t know, it might be a little too much. But I tried to tell her how grateful I was. I also wanted to tell her, you’re really good at this. Keep doing this job as long as it serves you. And that I’ll never forget her, and she’ll always be my friend and just like a goodbye email. It was really hard because I could tell that she had to push it along.
And I remember she said, “We have to wrap this up.” And it hurt a little to hear, but I also understood.
My therapist recommended I get her a gift. I said, “Is that appropriate? I’m not sure…” He said, “Just get her something.” And she loves dogs, so I got her a stuffed dog. It was weighted like a real dog. It heated like a real dog, and it also had essential oils.
August/narration:
That part made Joe laugh. What dog smells like essential oils? Anyway, he gave her the dog and still felt like they weren’t done.
Joe:
I said, I just, I feel like I wanna say something more. She said, it’s all been said and there are things she could not say, she was not allowed to say. So like, when we came back from the break, I said, I missed you.
And she said, thanks, it’s good to be back. I’m like, thanks. What is that supposed to mean? Am I, am my therapist? Like she can’t say I missed you too, because then she’s acknowledging that she’s thinking about you outside the sessions. It’s like, oh, okay. That’s true. Those boundaries, I felt in an inner, like chafing against them.
But I had to remind myself like, this is practice and you will get those fulfillment like later in a full relationship .
So I gave her a big hug and I said, I know you can’t say it back, but I’m really gonna miss you. And they said it again and she just made this noise, this really sad noise.
So she was acknowledging and kind of reciprocating in a way without saying the words. And then I walked out the door, I said, have a good life. You too. And she shut the door. And I remember I was walking around the hallway, this hallway I’d been going through for six months and then, we both we’re starting to cry. And, I, I left, went down the hallway, went down the elevator, and left, left the building.
And it’s been 17 months now, 18 months since then. And, I’m still like, am I still grieving or I’m not, I’m not, not over it. Like, it’s not like I’m stuck, but it’s really painful sometimes.
One thing that I remember at the very beginning when we talked about in, in the Zoom, before we even met in person, she said, you know, I have to break contact permanently.
And I went, wow. And she said, yeah, I cry sometimes with my clients. So I’m not glad she cried. But I’m also, there’s a sense of like, this was, this was real. And I had friends who didn’t understand and they said, it’s not a real relationship. And I said, it’s a practice relationship, but it doesn’t make it uncomfortable.
August: Yeah. And it’s meaningful.
Joe: And it was hard. It felt like it was dismissing this beautiful experience that I had that got me past these issues.
[emotional music fades]
August/narration:
A lot has evolved in Joe’s life since the end of his surrogate partner therapy.
Joe: In the last 17 months, I’ve done tantra. I’ve started dating other genders, come out as pansexual, fallen in love and got into a relationship with a man.
Completely threw me by surprise. Never thought I’d find a man that has that nurturing energy I wanted. And then a few months into the relationship, we started talking about exploring beyond monogamy.
August/narration:
And all of these changes feel so right, he said. It’s like his healing has peeled back layers to discover more about himself and his desires.
Joe: That’s what happens when you, a big piece of the puzzle gets put into place. Sometimes I hear it described as runways. You have all these gifts coming in. And in a neutral sense, they’re tools to help you achieve more. But your runway is cluttered with all kinds of crap and junk, and the planes can’t land. So they just circle.
So I had a plane circling for a good 20, 25 years, and then I finally cleared the last runway off, and it was just plane after plane landing. [planes flying, landing]
I used to cry thinking that I would never fall in love. I’d never find anyone. I’d be alone forever. And just about two or three weeks ago, I sat back and just talked about everything I have and I just started crying from joy. Every goal that I had at that time has been fulfilled.
August/narration:
Now Joe has new goals on the horizon, including his upcoming podcast, Pan Talk.
Joe: It’s about the pansexual pan romantic and pan gender part of the LGBTQIA+ spectrum.
We’re gonna have other people from the queer community and also straight people who have partners who are queer come on. We want to hear everyone’s perspective, but we’re looking for guests.
August/narration:
If you’re interested in appearing, email Joe and his team at pantalkpod@gmail.com.
Joe also has his sights set on the stage – or TV/film set, really – which he also credits to his sexual healing and authenticity.
Joe: Creative energy is sexual energy. So I’ve always wanted to be an actor.
August/narration:
Joe anticipates a full-circle type happening in his life one day, a way to pay his own growth forward.
Joe: I realized that one, the thing that I want to do now as well, which is a more long-term goal, is to be a surrogate partner myself and give back to other people the way I’ve been given back to, because I love to give, I’m really good at giving. And I think that I could make a contribution.
August/narration:
Especially given the need for surrogate partners with a pansexual focus, he said, and the heightened issues with sexual trauma in the queer community at large. Related to his journey, Joe wanted to leave you all with these words of wisdom.
Joe:
As you have these healing moments, share your story. Cause you never know who’s gonna hear what they need to hear at that moment. And I’ve had that experience many times, sharing my story. People hear what they, you know, hear their story in mind and go, oh my God, there’s a way out. This person got out and there’s a path. And here’s a path.
August/narration:
Whether or not that’s the right path for you, he said, it’s really about taking action. And trusting that things can go where they need to go.
Joe also shared some practical advice for folks wanting to “last longer” in bed.
Joe: If you are a penis-bodied individual, you can do kegels.
August/narration:
Kegels are exercises that flex and strengthen your pelvic floor.
Joe: That will actually build up physiological control. If I was getting too close, I would do a Kegel and it would kick me back. Into lower, into the cycle so I could have a little bit more time.
August/narration:
Joe also shared thoughts for anyone who feels insecure about their penis size. I think much of it applies to other body characteristics, too — say you feel self-conscious about your belly, or your breast size, or your wrinkles.
Joe: There is someone out there for everyone. We always get really scared of size. And no matter what you think, it really doesn’t matter. And most people, whatever, their gender really don’t care about size. Some do, most don’t. And so it’s not worth worrying about.
August/narration:
If you have a physical trait that’s unique or less common in your circles — for example, an uncircumcised penis, or as Joe described his, au naturale, use positive words to describe them. Something he learned from a partner., who asked him:
Joe: “What if it’s exotic?” So the phrase that was coined that day was “exotic dick.” I’m like, yeah, I have an exotic dick. I even have a partner now who is attracted to uncircumcised.
So these things hold you back, they’re not real. Let’s say for argument’s sake, the worst happens and somebody rejects you for any of these reasons, they’re not fucking worth it.
August/narration:
Finally, know that healing and growth in your sexuality takes as long as it takes.
Joe: I’ve met people who lost their virginity a lot later than me. you know, it’s just, take one small step today about whatever it is that you’re working on. Take one small step and you never know where that’s gonna lead.
For me, things don’t always work out exactly the way I want them to, but I always have what I need shows up for me. And if I’m in abundance, then I’m not spending my life searching for fulfillment in other places that’s never gonna fulfill me.I can just be here, right here, right now. And that’s where happiness lives, right here, right now, inside us.
August/narration:
Joe wished to stay anonymous, but if you have thoughts you’d like to share with him feel free to email me.
And if you’re enjoying Girl Boner Radio, I would so appreciate a rating and review and if you’d tell your friends about it. Thanks so much for listening.
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